Using Visual Models for the Best Experience with Instructional Designer Matthew Mason

Jeremy Deighan
Hey, everyone, thanks for checking out the podcast today. I have our guest with us, Matthew Mason from Supurb Learning.

And we've been talking off and on a little while now. And I've got to know Matt a little bit. It's really great talking to him, because he has a cool take on creating online courses that helps you kind of figure out the models and the frameworks of your course.

So that when you present that information to the students, it's really giving them something to attach to, something that they can focus on, and achieve the goals that they're going for.

So it's a pleasure to have you on the show today, Matthew. How are you doing?

Matthew Mason
I'm great. It's really good to be here. Thank you, Jeremy.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely, I think this is going to be a great episode, something a little different than what we've talked about in the past. And something that I think is really beneficial and helpful for all of our online course creators out there.

But let's go ahead and start before you got into teaching this and this type of business that you're in now, what were you doing before you got into online business and online courses? And then how did you get into this world?

Matthew Mason
That's always an interesting story. I used to work in the racing industry. So I used to work riding thoroughbred horses, breaking and educating and pre-training thoroughbred horses.

So, that was going back probably 22 years ago now. I was at the time was in the was actually doing that work in Japan, came back from Japan and found out that there was a school here in Brisbane in Queensland, Australia, that was teaching Japanese students how to work with horses.

I thought, "That wouldn't be a bad spot to live." And I applied for a job and got a job. And that's was sort of where it all started. And then I was there teaching them how to ride and stuff and then got asked to step into the classroom.

And then the resources that I gave me were very, very thin and ordinary. And so I said, "Well, can you build something better?" So that really started me down the path of instructional design and developing training resources.

At the time, it wasn't in the online space, it was still very much print based material and PowerPoints. But yeah, that evolved over time. And we started to move into looking at online capabilities and and then I left there and moved to becoming a training manager for a mortgage company.

And that was then yeah, where I really sort of start moving. I implemented a Moodle LMS. And that was sort of I think it was Moodle 1.8. That was how old it was and, and I was using a tool called Captivate to develop the the online training resources that at that time, it was actually Macromedia Captivate now owned by Adobe.

And yeah, that really just started me down that path of developing online resources. And then about nine years ago, I went, "You know what, I need some bit more variety."

So I stepped out on my own set up my own business. And yeah, continue to ask developing primarily, you know, initially within the corporate market, but more lately working with the solopreneurs, and small and medium businesses.

What I refer as half work, not hard work, you know, working with some of these solopreneurs and things that are doing some great work, having huge impact on people and what they're doing, and gives us a great purpose, knowing that we're helping them to get their knowledge out there to create some great learning experiences that are going to help to impact other people.

Jeremy Deighan
Awesome, very cool. Yeah, that's a great story. And you can see when when people think back, you know, 5, 10, 20 years of their life, you can see the trajectory that got them to where they are now.

The fact that you started teaching race horsing and through the classroom through learning the skills of helping students and education and things like that, that evolved over time and brought you to where you are today.

And I always like to hear these stories for that reason. So nine years ago, you decided, "Okay, I'm going to go out on my own and I'm going to try to create my own business around this information."

Was that teaching people instructional design or were you creating resources for people? What did that early business look like?

Matthew Mason
Yes, the early business was me working as an instructional designer developing online resources and still, you know, in the early stages resources as well. But yeah, developing resources for clients.

And that was a mix of you know, large corporates, government departments, etc. And some small, small to medium enterprises as well. But yeah, initially it was developing programs for them.

And then eventually we went, "You know what, we should probably start developing our own courses as well."

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, very cool. And when you when you started that business in the early days, how were you getting clients through the door?

Did you already have people that you knew through some of the work you'd already been doing? Or was this a new venture where you had to go out and start making new contacts?

Matthew Mason
A lot of it was a new venture, I was lucky. At the time, I was doing some work with a training organization, sat down with the manager, and I told him basically, that I've made a decision to leave and go out on my own.

And obviously, I was doing some great work for them. I didn't want to, they didn't want to lose me. So he said, "Okay, well, we'll become your first client." So that was really good.

And then from that, it was really just going out and making connections, meeting new people. And a lot of that, in the early stages was also through referral, you know?

So that was, obviously I've been out in the market as well. Even while I was working, for other people, I still out networking and meeting people and things like that. So yeah, it was good. It was a lot of referrals in the early stages, which was great.

It was a bit of a double edged sword, though, as well, because you know, getting lots of referrals. So I didn't actually need to go chasing the work and didn't need to do a great deal of marketing.

That's always a challenge, because then if the referrals slow down, or you know, that sort of works, not there, then yeah, if you haven't been doing any marketing, then you're going to be in a bit of a sticky situation.

Jeremy Deighan
Right? It's a It's a whole new world, isn't it?

Matthew Mason
It is. Yeah, definitely.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, cool. So, in the beginning, you're doing these corporate jobs and these these government contracts. And then you said later on, you started branching out to smaller, medium sized business solopreneurs.

About how long ago did you start making that transition?

Matthew Mason
Oh, we stopped making that transition about two years ago. But we've had a couple of people along the way.

And we had one guy that was a chiropractor that had a sort of slightly different methodology around how he was helping people with their back problems. And we helped him develop a program around that.

A and a few other, you know, small and sort of sat back and looked and you know, what they were the ones that we really enjoyed doing that was really good, because we had a good connection with the decision maker.

Whereas with the corporates, yeah, we could go in, and we can sort of suggest that we can do this, you know, this great experience, but things would have to sort of, you know, the decision maker was generally sort of fought three to four steps up from the people we're dealing with, and didn't necessarily always ended up being the best best learning experience that we felt could be done.

But because of the sort of decisions in the organization, that's, you know, that's what it was. So yeah, we thought, "Okay, now we want to start working more with the smaller medium businesses to solopreneurs. And help them create the impact."

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, so instead of going through these different levels of hierarchy, and creating this content for these big wide corporations, you found it useful to be able to speak directly to the people who were running the businesses, the business owners, the entrepreneurs, the chiropractor's, and people like that.

Matthew Mason
Yeah, yeah, it was much easier. You know, we can pitch an idea on what the experience could look like or feel like. And then that was it when you were dealing directly with the decision maker.

But also as well, what they were actually putting out there, in terms of their courses and content, like a lot of the stuff we're doing in the corporate was a lot of very much compliance based type things or soft skills training.

We sort of would question whether or not there was a huge impact that they were having. Whereas we did some work with one lady who had written a book a program, it was all around healthy eating for children.

And we helped her develop on the online course, that was then going into childcare or daycare centers, teaching them how to prepare healthy meals for children with the idea of improving the diets of young children.

So you know, when you look at that, compared to helping a corporate developer, a program that is around health and safety or compliance or something that slows a lot of the organization don't necessarily perceive as being huge value, then we can see much, much greater impact with you know, helping someone to actually educate others in how kids can have better diets.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's cool. You're having you're having that direct inpact to these people. And you're seeing the fruits of that labor probably pretty immediately, too, which is really cool.

So then you said, you know, you're, you're helping others create programs, and you're doing design for others. And then you got to a point where you said, okay, you decided you needed to start creating your own material.

So did you come to a point where you thought to yourself, "You know, maybe I should create my own learning curriculum so that people can learn how to design better programs for themselves?" Is that what it looked like?

Matthew Mason
Yeah, initially, we started developing some training programs more focused very much focused on instructional design. And some others around some of the tools that traditional instructional designers would use.

So the software and tools that they use. And then lately, we've been more focused on again, helping courses for those, you know, solopreneurs, or what we what we're now referring as edupreneurs, the education of entrepreneurs, and helping them to help them.

So courses around, you know, how do they unpack their intellectual property? How do they nail their niche, you know, what is their target market? But then also some things around how do you do YouTube ads? How do you do a Facebook Live? How do you do you know, Facebook Groups.

So those mix of different courses and things that those edupreneurs are going to need to be able to support them to get their knowledge out there on the world.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, awesome. Yeah, let's go ahead and start diving into some of that content that I wanted to ask you about.

We'll start at the beginning. I want to really dive into what we were talking about earlier about your frameworks and the models that you help people create, because I think that's pretty fascinating.

But like you said, you've got to start at the beginning for for the new people who are listening out there, for the ones who don't have a core, they're still trying to find their footing.

What are some of the first pieces of advice you give to someone who maybe they're an expert at a skill? Or maybe they have a business, and they would like to create an educational content?

But like you said, picking your niche, coming up with the content. How do you go about that specifically?

Matthew Mason
Yeah, so I suppose it's really four key things that we look at there.

Obviously, there's a thing around what is your expertise in? So you know, you could be in marketing or sales, for example, what's your expertise. But then also, then looking at a where's their passion?

Because, yeah, while people have probably got expertise in a number of different things, you can probably drill down and look at what where's the real passion in that? And then and then from there gank out.

Well, what are the problems that are out there that you can solve? What does the world need? What are the problems that you can solve that there's a mix of that takes your expertise and your passion? And what are those big problems that can be solved? And what are those problems that people are willing to pay for? And really focus in on those four factors.

And that will sort of drilled down into into that sort of entrepreneurial sweet spot, because then you're delivering content, you're teaching people about something that your expertise and you've got passion in that they need a problem solved and that they're also willing to pay for.

So that's the first thing and then I suppose yeah, then make a book. Obviously, when you're looking at what what does that the world need? What do people need? Then going, "Okay, well, what is the you know, what's the market, what's the niche that you're going to target into?"

And so it really sort of narrowed down so that you have a have a good niche, rather than sort of going, "Okay, I'm going to try and be an expert to everyone," target a specific niche.

So for example, you might be someone that's in sales, but then maybe your passion is really in dealing with objections, or maybe it's to do with, you know, closing the sale or something like that. And then you find a lot of people would have problems with closing this out.

But then the go, "Okay, well, who am I going to help?" And maybe it might be an issue in a specific industry, or it could be in a specific target of people, and really get those things.

So once you've got you know, you know who you're serving, and you know the problem you're solving. From that, then you can start to think about, well, what does this actually look like? And what is it I need to teach people is part of that experience.

Jeremy Deighan
Lovely, I love this. I know that me and you have talked in the past and have communicated, but I don't think we've ever shared our philosophies on some of this stuff.

But I'm very in tune with what you're saying, because I believe a lot of the same things. When looking at that market, that niche that you want to tackle, you hit on the same points that I always teach, and that's your expertise, your passion.

And I love the third one, market demand is kind of the two that you broke out as problems to solve and problems people will pay for. And I feel like I always see it as a Venn diagram where you need to be kind of in the center of the three.

Because you can have, you know, here can be demand and expertise. But like you said, if you're not passionate about it, I feel like that's when people kind of burn out and they get tired and they move on to something different.

Matthew Mason
Yeah, definitely. And that's where we see people going and chasing shiny objects. Because they're going, "Oh, hang on, there's something else that's gonna spark my passion." And if it's not there, yeah,

Jeremy Deighan
Right, right. And then you know, you could have all the passion in the world, and you might be an expert at it. But if there's no problems, or people aren't willing to pay for that, you're not gonna end up anywhere.

And if you have passion, and people are paying for it, but you're not an expert. And an expert is loose, because you just got to be good enough to teach the material. But people can tell when people are being fake.

So if you obviously don't know what you're talking about, and you see this all the time, unfortunately, especially in marketing, people trying to teach things that they quite themselves don't really understand.

Because they're chasing the money, they know that, you know, this subject is going to make a lot of money, and I want to talk about it, but you can tell they're not really an expert in that field.

That's a recipe for disaster, don't you think?

Matthew Mason
Oh, definitely, definitely, yeah, there's a lot of those. There's, you know, marketing, course creation as well, where they've been able to do some, some marketing quite well, or they've created a course that's been successful.

And then they go, "I'm going to teach everyone." And it's like, hang on a minute, there's always just because what worked for you in that one instance, doesn't actually make you an expert, and it's not necessarily going to work for everyone else.

So are you actually able to deal with the challenges that those others are going to face based on your one successful experience. And that's then where the expertise comes in, who can go, "Yeah, you know what? That worked here. But that's not going to work there. And I would recommend that you do this instead."

And that's definitely where that expertise needs to come in as part of that.

Jeremy Deighan
Right, definitely, I love it. And then your final thought there was making sure that you market a niche down into something that you can target or go after.

I was thinking earlier about you talking about, you know, helping make healthy meals for children. That's a very niche topic.

You know, a lot of people talk about fitness and health, and people talk about making healthy meals, but you know, tailoring it to children takes it that one step further, where you're really going to have a more invested audience.

Because you know, parents or schools or whoever you're teaching this to who needs to learn this is going to raise their hand and say, "Yes, this is for me."

Matthew Mason
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And in that situation, that client, you know, really niche down even further from healthy eating for children, but then niche down delivering just to people in daycare or childcare centers with the idea that eventually once they got that market nailed, then they could expand and then would create programs that they're going to teach the parents, but the children are already eating the healthy food during the day.

So, then it would be an easier step for, you know, for the parents to go, "Okay, well, this is what my kids are eating during the day, and maybe I can learn about what I'm going to do and how can I create some of these meals for my children at home, or for breakfast or dinner."

You know, while you might go, "I'm going to target this niche." It's not necessarily where you have to stay, but certainly gives you the focus that you need in the initial pace. And then once you've got that working and stuff, then you can look at, "Okay, is there another? Is there another market? Can we you know, make a slight change and move into a different nature or different market with our expertise and passion?"

Jeremy Deighan
One of the main things I wanted to talk with you today is about creating some sort of model or some sort of framework.

And when you messaged me, when I read this, it really clicked because you I forget the exact message, but you said something along the lines of, "We help others create a model so that the student has something to attach themselves to."

I think this is really important because frameworks are a great way to have people visualize what they're going to be learning. And when you have a four step process, a seven step process, or you can illustrate what that process looks like, it becomes easier to explain it becomes more memorable and it becomes timely.

So if you could just kind of give us a little explanation on how do you go about finding this information. And then how do you create that model or that framework for the educator?

Matthew Mason
Yeah, so we've actually been quite lucky. This is something that we were working on and trying to sort of come up with. And then I came across someone here in Australia that had already developed a program.

So they've got a program called the Think Wrap System. And we're now certified to deliver that system and basically packaging into our offering with our clients.

But basically, what we're doing is we started off with, and we're taking people through, basically just asking lots and lots of questions, unpacking their intellectual property, getting the knowledge out of their head. But structuring it into a couple of visual models.

And the first visual model we talk about is the results model. And that is really where we looking at a couple of things that could be like a hero's journey. If we're looking at someone that's maybe a small to medium business, we have what we call a Matrix Model, where, you know, there's sort of two factors that can impact on how successful they are.

But basically, what we're looking at with that results model is looking at where's the pinnacle of where they want to be, you know, what's the journey that they've been on? And what are the problems or the steps along the way?

And we can then use that to sort of tell a bit of a story. So you might go, for example, you know, we could develop a hero's journey for the course creator, where they've gone, "Okay, I've come up with an idea for a course and I grabbed the platform, and I started with content in it, but then it really wasn't working."

And then, you know, so what were the problems they had? Well, the problems were the marketing. And then obviously, I found someone like Matthew or Jeremy that were able to help me to put it together into a great format, and now, you know, successful course.

So that's the first part. So we can actually then use this as a bit of a journey. So it's not necessarily used in the course creation piece, but certainly, it's used in the marketing piece. So then we can actually go to people and look at them and go, "Yes, that's where I am in that journey."

And and we start to develop some emotional connections with them because it's with that visual model, they can look at it go, "Yeah, that's where I'm at." As opposed to just reading a whole lot of text.

Then we look at unpacking more what we call the answers model. And it's going, what are the things you need to have in place to be able to be successful in what you're doing?

For us and our thing is, we need to have client clarity, you need to, you know, need to have a signature solution, you need to have your systems in place, you need to have your technology, tools and technology. So those are all the different things that you need to have in place. And that's the answers model.

And then we then put in place, what we call our process model. And this is really becomes the foundation for your course. And the process model could be a five or seven steps that says, "Okay, well, what do we do?" First thing is we need to, we know, we do step one, and step two, step three, and if we do all of those steps, then we're going to get those those keys to success in place, we're going to hit the results.

And then the fourth one is then our target model, which really talks about the benefits that people have. So for example, with our target, we're saying, "If you work with us, we're going to help you move."

We talk about the blue ocean and red oceans where you're fighting the sharks and competition the blue ocean where you're, you know, you're out there on your own and being seen as your own individual person, and you follow this process and then you're going to have these benefits and that's going to be you're going to have impactful results, you're gonna have faster outcomes, and enhanced lifestyle.

And so we've packaged all of that up into those four visual models. And then we have obviously the process model is going to lead to the seven steps, right? Then that's the structure for your course and then we can actually drill down into each of those steps and then we can actually look at each of those steps.

And again, we can go, "Is there a model there?" So if we're talking about you know, for example client clarity for us we talk about the you know, we've got another model sitting underneath that fact which is our persona model where we looking at all who what is the persona of the person.

So yeah, so it's really a matter of just creating those models and once we've got those models, everything's laid out it's all unpacked and then it's so very easy then to go "Great, let's create this. We've got all of these different paces here and let's start to create a course that's based on most things."

And generally would start off with the process model. That's the key piece to go from there.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, and you are gathering the information for these different models, the results model, the answers model, the process model and the target model by asking questions toward that educator.

So you have a set of questions that you ask them to pull out the information to fill into these models?

Matthew Mason
Yeah, generally. We're just jumping on a Zoom call. We've got a virtual whiteboard and we're just asking questions and putting lots of sticky notes up on the board and you know, doing some brainstorming and then filtering down those thoughts.

You know, so for example, again, process model. What's all the different things that you're doing? You do this, I do this, they're the same. Now, let's Let's filter that down. And what's what does that look like? Okay, what all can we group that stuff together? So that's step one is really this peice.

Step two is these pieces. Yeah. And then filter that down as part of that. So it's really asking a lot of questions, getting them to brainstorm, getting them to basically just unload everything that they're talking about, that they've got in their head, because obviously they've got a level of expertise. But it's really just a matter of pulling that out.

And then putting it into these visual models. And the visual models, then obviously help to give them some clarity as well, because once they've got it mapped out, and they can actually see the process, they can go, "Yes, that's the steps I do." Or, "Hang on, there's something missing there."

And then we can actually drill down and go, "Okay, what's missing? Let's put another step in there if need be, let's refine things. I know that's not quite the right flow." And then once they've got that, then when they're delivering the course, they can show, "Okay, this is it, these are the steps you can follow."

And yeah, as we were talking before, it's kind of giving people his clear framework that they can go, "Okay, this is where I'm at, in my journey. I'm on step one, I know, now I'm on step three, I'm on step four."

And from a visual piece, you know, it allows people to remember things a lot easier. You know, having that framework to sort of have a bit of a schemata, to tie your knowledge to, as opposed to, "I've just got to remember those different things." Yeah. So that's the huge benefit of it, and makes it so much easier then to craft the content for the further learning experience.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, it really looks like I'm sitting here looking at my notes that I've written down here. And it seems like it would give you a very clear roadmap of what you needed to do through each step of the phase.

Even into the marketing, as you mentioned. Because we all know that creating, of course, is one thing, but marketing it and selling it as a whole nother animal. But it seems like when you lay it out this way, and you're thinking about where that customer is in their journey.

And you know, what are the results you're getting them? What are the processes you're teaching them? What are the benefits of the course? It feels like it would lay that out in a very succinct order for you to follow as you begin creating your course and creating your marketing plan and so forth.

Matthew Mason
Definitely, definitely, yeah. That's the huge thing. It's not just about creating the content for your course. But yeah, it's also that marketing piece and having all of these visual tools.

Again, when you're trying to market it, if you can go, "Alright, this is it, have a look at this. These are the benefits you're going to get or this is the results" And people can look at the results model and go, "Yes, that's where I am on my journey."

Or, "Yes, they're the benefits I want." Or the answers model one, you know, "These are the keys to success that I need. Okay, I don't have that. I don't have that. That's why this isn't working." You know? It really helps from a marketing point of view.

The other thing as well is the, you know, the huge bonuses that we're seeing coming out of this is we're going, "Okay, well, we've got this process model, we've mapped this out," but the results model, we've got the answers model, we've got the process model, we got the target model.

Okay, let's say there's results model, let's say those five steps in our results model. There's six keys to success in our answers model, there's six steps in our process model and maybe three steps in our target or three elements in our target model.

Then we've actually effectively got 20 individual elements. Now, if you then go, "Okay, I want to talk about each of those elements individually. And I can find three sub topics to talk about those things, then I'm actually got 16 pieces of content that I could do."

"Now, I just wants you to do a two minute video on each of those 20 things. Then I want you to 20 minute video on those on the three sub points of those 20 things. That's 18 pieces of content that we've got that you can then craft, and there's all your social media content for you." You know?

As well as as well as your course content. And then if you want to as well, you've already got this, you've already got this roadmap laid out, you can go, "Okay, right now that that's your framework for a book." If you want to write a book, there it is, as well.

So while we've taken this approach, and going, okay we're looking at it from creating a course because obviously that's where you're going to have the biggest benefit in terms of you know, sharing your knowledge and also, you know, the greater opportunity to create an income.

The marketing piece of the social media is an element that's needed to, to attract attention, to make people problem over it. But then also creating a book becomes a very valuable asset they can also use from a marketing point of view where its sort of that business card on steroids type situation.

You know, you got a book. "Oh, he's written a book. Okay." So yeah. And then and then also from a marketing point of view where, you know, if you go to someone and you go, "Okay, I've got a course on on sales, or I've got a course on marketing." And then you go to someone else and say, "Yeah, I've got a course that's going to take you through my six steps, you know, my six steps to better marketing. These are results, you know, this is the benefits you're going to get."

What one are you going to go with? You're probably going to go with the one that clearly shows you that's going to connect with you emotionally, because they're going, "Yes, I've got some, I've got some key steps, I've got a framework. Okay, this guy has actually really thought about it. He must be an expert in what he's doing. Because if really thought about it. And he's got this defined framework."

"As opposed to some other guy that's, or girl, that is just going to teach me about marketing, but I'm really not sure about the process that I'm going to follow. I'm really not sure about the journey that I'm gonna go on, while I'm doing this program. And I'm not sure how it's going to work or where it's going to flow."

So there's, I suppose, in the back of the mind, and the learners probably still thinking, "Where does all this sit?" And some of the time is spent thinking all of those things, as opposed to focusing on the key things that you want them to do as part of that experience.

Jeremy Deighan
Nice. Yeah, I love it. And it's just seems like thinking about the different content, you know, having multiple pieces of content through each one of these models.

And each model having, you know, different steps or processes can sometimes, well, not sometimes as we know, it takes multiple touchpoints for someone to buy in to a product or service or an offer anyways.

And so if you are creating all this content, as you said, you know, three pieces of content for each process on each model, then one day, maybe you're hitting the results, piece of content, and someone sees that and say, "Okay, this is the result I can get."

And then the next day, you have a process piece of content where they say, "Okay, this process makes sense. And over time, you are warming that person up to you to where they will come to bite you. Because you've gone through and kind of shown them the results, the frameworks, the benefits, and so on.

Matthew Mason
Yeah, yeah, that's it. And someone might come across one piece of content, and it might resonate with them. And then they want to sort of, you know, scratch the surface, dig a little bit deeper and say, "Well, what else is this person saying?"

And then yeah, if you've already got some of those pieces of content, it could be having a 20 pieces of a model and then three sub steps that are 80 pieces of content. Now if you do those videos, then you can get them transcribed and then they're blog posts.

I'm sure there's probably a few golden nuggets in there that you can probably pull out those you know, little quote cards, you know, if you could do that, and for every sort of video, then you've got, you know. And then you've got 80 videos, you've got 80 blog posts, you've got 80 quote cards, differen posts as well.

So then you've now gone from 80 to 240 pieces of content. So then when people drill down into this and go, "Okay, well yeah, this person knows what they're talking about. And yeah, and it resonates with me and stuff. I want to work with this person. How do I do that?"

"Oh my god, they've got a course. They've got a course that teaches me all of this stuff. Oh my god, I'm so excited! How do I buy it?"

And that's it. And that's the goal and them sort of just coming down and saying, "I want to do your course because I like everything that you do." Not, "Ugh. Hang on, come and sell me. Try and sell me on your course."

And so then the marketing of it becomes a lot easier. And again, you know, the visual models connect with the emotions and as much as we would love to tell ourselves that all our decisions are made logically, the reality is that 95% of our decisions are made by our subconscious and emotional brain.

But yeah, certainly if we can connect with people on an emotional basis and the visuals help with that.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, you don't buy a car because of what kind of tires it has. You buy because of the way it makes you feel when you're driving. Right?

Matthew Mason
Yep, that's it and again, you know, as I say to people, like people don't want to do your course. They don't want to buy your course. They want an outcome.

This great analogy I heard a while ago was you know, people don't want to buy a drill bit. They want the hole. Same sort of thing. You know, they want the outcome that your course provides.

But if your course can through your messaging through through the visual models and stuff can really articulate to that person and really hit them emotionally and say this is the outcomes that come, then they will want to buy your course for the outcomes.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, you know, and I've thought that through even more, they don't want the hole. They don't want the drill bit, and they don't want the hole. They want to mount a TV on their wall so that they can sit down with their family and have a nice you know, movie night or something and enjoy an experience.

So that's awesome, man. That's really good stuff. I had more questions to ask you. But we're getting kind of close on time here. So we might have to have you come back on the podcast again and do some more follow up questions.

Because I wanted to ask you more about some of your social media and traffic strategies. But it's been awesome having you on here today.

And just thinking about, you know, those those course creators, and I know, you've talked to them before, you have experience. And the people who are early on in their journey, and who are kind of just starting out or haven't really got there yet, what some advice that you could offer to someone like that?

Matthew Mason
Oh, look. I think the big bit of advice is to really, as I said earlier, focus on the problem and stuff. The other bit of advice is, don't worry about the technology.

You know, so often we see people that go, "I want to build a course, what platform do I choose?" And again, you know, that analogy of, you know, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

And if you start off with a piece of technology, then what you're going to create is really going to be limited by that technology. Put the technology stuff back, you know, step four or five.

Really, really get clear on what it is that you, what sort of experience you want to create. What is the problem is the solving? Once you've got that, then you can start to think about what is that?

What do I need? What are the tools I need to make that happen? You know, is it a course? Is that a membership site? Is it an information courses? Is it a master class where I'm you know, delivering live sessions or live q&a in amongst you know, an online course?

Really get clear on all of those things first, before you start worrying about the tech type stuff.

Jeremy Deighan
Perfect, I love it. Well, thank you so much, Matthew. I appreciate your time today. And thank you for coming on the podcast and speaking some wisdom to everyone out there.

And you're a wealth of information, I feel like we could definitely learn a lot more from you. So if people want to find out more about your business and how you can help them online, where can they go to do that?

Matthew Mason
The best place they can go is our learning platform, signaturesolution.academy. www signaturesolution.academy.

That's where all our courses are, they can jump on there. And from there, they can sort of connect with us as well. And see some of the, that's obviously our core online courses that we've got, but also some of our masterclass programs, which are a mix of online courses and supported programs with me or one of our learning designers supporting them as they go through that journey. So that would be the best place to go to get a little bit more around what we do.

Jeremy Deighan
Perfect. Well, I'll make sure that I link that up in the show notes. So if anyone's listening and wants to go to the show notes, and click on those links, and check out more about Matthew, I'm sure you'll learn a lot from him.

Thanks for coming on the podcast today. I appreciate you and I just hope you continue on this journey of success going into the future.

Matthew Mason
Thank you, Jeremy. And look, thanks for putting this podcast together. It's, you know, this one and all the other episodes are certainly providing huge amount of value to those people that are in the course creator community.

So it's great that you're doing it. Thank you.