Using Gamification to Increase Engagement with Software Programmer Steven Lewis

Jeremy Deighan
Hey, everyone, thank you for checking out the podcast today. We have Steven Lewis from MindArrive. And I'm excited to have Steven on the show who is going to tell us some strategies around gamification and what gamification is, and some other cool tips and tricks that he has for us that can really help get our students the result of completing the course and finishing the course. So I'm excited to have you on today. How are you doing today, Steven?

Steven Lewis
Good. Thanks for having me, Jeremy.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. I was looking over your site and your information. And I think that this is going to be very great, valuable podcast episode for our listeners out there. But I always like to, you know, begin at the beginning and just find out your background and where you came from. What were you doing before you got into the online space?

Steven Lewis
Okay, well, before the online space, I go back to the days of beginning programming. I was with IBM way back in the day and mini computers. And in the more recent years, I was in the CRM business, customer relationship management, where we set up systems to help people follow up with their customers. I was director of product development for Goldmine Software, which was a pretty big software company, was even before Salesforce. But the ideas were the same: teaching principles, to teaching people to follow up on on their opportunities, and make sure things were happening, you know, what happened last and what happens next. And management can see and keep score, what was going on.

That was accountability, that created the accountability. Before that people just, salesmen just kept things on index cards and said they were doing their work. And the accountability is important, because in the more recent years, where I've reinvented myself to be, to do e-learning. Okay, I was doing e-learning back when it was Moodle, 15 years ago, and there weren't all these systems. And Moodle was very clunky, but I was still fascinated by it. And now with all these newer systems, these LMSes, and it's great that everybody can be in the game, you don't have to be a programmer like myself. So that's great. That's great.

So when I've applied a lot of the principles to e-learning, because I am a programmer, I've added my own ideas to the software's. And in e-learning, which is great, I found that the e-learning was very much one way. You know, you watch a video, you do these assignments, and there really wasn't a way to find out what the student was doing. Pretty much they click the complete button, and then that log is complete, but they could have watched this video for five seconds and pressed complete. So you didn't really know if they watched it. Since I'm a programmer, I am able to add on to some systems, and I use Thinkific, and I created a system that adds the accountability. So when students watch a video, it logs how long they watch the video.

And I do work for nonprofits. That's my, I'm semi-retired. So I do work for nonprofits. And I do work for Inspiring Childrens Foundation, which is sponsored by Jewel, the singer. This is pretty interesting. Everybody knows what a beautiful soul she is. She was once homeless back in the day before she was famous and she had mental issues. So she wanted to share with children and everyone, for free, how to do meditations and things like that. So I created a course that that shows Jewel's techniques, her counting meditation. And what's a little different is I log the time that the children do the meditation. So I know that they're doing okay. And then on top of that, I give them points for how long they do it. So we can have a high scores table, and make a friendly competition, and make it fun for the children and their parents. And that's what I do a little differently.

So I'm into gamification in the leaderboards. But I think that gamification really is described as accountability. It's a fun way to make accountability. And then I can interact with the students, in this case these children and their parents. I know who's doing the work, and I can encourage them to do the work. And we do meditations. We encourage them to do online journals, gratitude journals particularly. And, you know, we have assignments of why it's important to be mindful and kind to others. And that's what the course is all about. So I'm very happy that I'm able to use my computer skills in positive ways. And that's what I'm looking for, that's my mission right now.

Jeremy Deighan
Oh, yeah. First of all, I just gotta say that, that's awesome. I think you're on a great mission. And the fact that you are providing this information for the youth out there is so important, because they're often neglected, I feel, and there's not enough of this kind of stuff out there. So just congratulations on that. So, you mentioned that you use Thinkific. So these systems that you're building, are you building them inside of Thinkific? Or is it a separate app? Or how does that process work?

Steven Lewis
Yeah, that's a good question. Thinkific was one of the few systems that let you get into their technology, specifically through their multimedia lesson, in which case they let you pass the user ID, and the first name and last name to my programs, so there's not a second log-in. So when they're in Thinkific, and they, I have one of my lessons, which could be a lesson about of watching a video, it's all it all looks like the same system. So because Thinkific lets me do that, that's why I chose that system. It's quite brilliant, because now you can extend the system to do anything if you're a programmer, you know, and that's what I was able to do. And that's why I picked it, they're very kind that they do that. Other ones don't let you pass the information to your software. So then you have to have a second log-in. And that's pretty inconvenient. I like it all to look like one system. And that's why Thinkific is, that's why I chose Thinkific to build this technology.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, cool. That's awesome. I didn't really realize that about Thinkific, that it allowed you to kind of get into the code and add things to it and use, you know, those kinds of kinds of fields. So that's pretty interesting. And I want to maybe dive a little more deeper into that, and how you use that strategy and how that can help other people listening. But just taking it back to kind of the beginning. If someone is listening right now, and they don't understand gamification, maybe they haven't heard of that word before. And they don't know what that is. Can you just briefly describe what is gamification? And how does that help the student who is taking a course?

Steven Lewis
Right? Well, gamification is a clever way to keep people, students doing the course. And, you know, here's my little trick question for most people. What makes a great e-learning course? And the answer is the one that the students actually do. Okay. Because so many people start these courses, and then they don't finish them. And that's the big secret that a lot of people who are course creators don't even want to think about. But it's true. The stats say that.

So, how can you cleverly get students to actually do these courses and have fun doing it at the same time? And that's where gamification comes in. And that's really popular these days. So basically, you want to reward students for accomplishing things, and you want to have interaction between the students and the teacher, you know, which is me. So when I ask them questions, they answer the questions and then I reply to their answers and comment on it. And for answering, they get points. And then I have another section that's like social media, I ask the whole group of question.

"What ways are you going to be fine this week? Name five ways," and they write their answers, and then everyone in the course can answer those, can comment on that student, what they wrote. And for answering the question, and for commenting on the question, they get points, and all the points go to a leaderboard. And they accumulate between a certain period of time. And you can have the leaderboard for each month or each week. So it doesn't matter if somebody is way behind, when it starts all over again, everybody's equal again, and then they can, you know, compete.

And then we have prizes for the leaderboard. You know, we can give Amazon gift cards and things like that. So that's how, that's how I do it in the course gamification. And, of course, it adds the accountability and the engagement. That's the important part, and the fun. Okay, that's in a course. And, you know, in a little bit, also, I'd like to tell you how we've used gamification in five-day challenges. I have a really clever way that we just did it in a weekend. And it worked really well. So when you're ready for that, I'll tell you.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, I'm gonna, I'll take that down as a note. And we'll definitely dive into that. Let's talk a little bit more about the course side for a moment, and then we'll do the five-day challenge. That sounds really interesting. So then the gamification, so they are doing different exercises and answering questions or completing, maybe, projects. And these are creating points for this person that they are accumulating. And then those points can be seen on a leaderboard that shows everyone's names and the points that they have also?

Steven Lewis
Exactly. The points they accumulated doing those exercises, and then the teacher can get another report on everything everyone's done. Which is really nice, because they can drill in even more, and see, you know, who's watching the video, and how long they're watching it. And, you know, so they can see the retention rate. So there's much more data than in a regular course.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that sounds really neat. because like you said, this really drives the engagement and makes it funner than just watching videos, right? Like, I think that's where courses, there's so many out there, and there's so many online courses, and they all are just videos of people talking but to be able to add in these interactive elements, that allows people to see how they're doing have personal goals and group goals, and even be awarded for those goals, I think is really interesting.

Steven Lewis
Yes, that's exactly it. Jeremy, you got it in a nutshell there. And, you know, everybody does these courses, and there's more people than ever doing it, and I'm really happy they're doing it. And I really like to help them too, and many of them, they do these videos, one after another. And sometimes they do like 45-minute videos in one shot. And no, you're really supposed to only do like, five-minute videos, because that's, they'll lose the people. But if you don't do it properly, you're just gonna lose them.

And every time I see, see someone's course, and I try and help them I go, "This video is too long." And you know, they don't understand. So it's very, very important, John, to understand true course creation, and not just take what's in your mind and just put it in a long video and say, "Here, everybody just watch this." They won't do it. So we need ways to create engagement, not just the person talking to the audience for 45 minutes and expecting them to stay there and listen.

Jeremy Deighan
Right, definitely. So talking about the online course still, you know, not everyone is able to program and able to get into, you know, a program like Thinkific and build in these type of elements and gamification elements inside the actual software itself. But can you give any examples? Or do you know of any examples or ways that someone who isn't a programmer, but they want to add gamification somehow into their course? Do you have any examples that you could give for that?

Steven Lewis
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of the course creation programs, I know Thinkific, there's some people, I can't remember off the top of my head, that has integration, and they have point systems, and, you know, you purchase their software and it integrates with Thinkific, and it gives, it's a point system similar to mine. I know that there's software, MemberVault, which is, does it very nicely to and they allot points to activities. So that's a very good one for just right-out-of-the-box software, an LMS that's very well done, and creates engagement points for activities that are done. And that's right out of the box. And even the free version does that. So I was very impressed with MemberVault for doing that. And the principles.

And then I know, there's another, there's another software called experience with an X. And that they also do gamification, their specialty is gamification. And as you complete things, you get points. So I didn't reinvent the wheel. You know, I saw some concepts that were out there. And I, as a programmer, I was able to recreate them and make them a little more that's my style, and a little better, I thought, but there are some out there that already exist. And I encourage everybody to try it. I would go to MemberVault because it has a great free version, and it has the gamification in it already. I think people would be very pleased. Very well done. Very well done.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely put those in the show notes and have that link for that app, so everyone can check it out.

Steven Lewis
Right.

Jeremy Deighan
So what kind of results have you been seeing with your, since you've been implementing gamification into courses? Are you noticing that there is a positive trend that people who are doing these assignments and the gamification aspects, that they are getting better results? Or they are completing the course? Are you able to see that through stats or tracking or anything like that?

Steven Lewis
Yeah, I have all kinds of stats and reports that reports off the tables that I created for the lessons that they did, and they do do it more often. And I'm able to see who's not doing it, and I'm able to keep on top of those students and text them or email them and say, "Come on, you know, you didn't do your meditation today. You had three days in a row, and today's the fourth day. Don't don't lose your streak."

So I'm able to be more personal with the children and even their parents who do it. And the point, my style is to be more personal with the students. I know people go, "I can't do that, because I want to scale and I want to I'm having 1000 students, and you know, I'm not going to ..." Well, that's not how I like to do it. I like to really be a person behind the course, really interacting with the student. And my technology gives me the stats, that I could actually interact with them properly and know who's doing the work. And that makes all the difference in the accountability.

Jeremy Deighan
So, let's go ahead and we will switch over to the five-day challenge, because I know you mentioned that earlier that you had used some of these principles and a five-day challenge recently with some success. And I know that challenges are a great way to get people motivated and to take action. And if you can add to that, I would definitely love to hear that. So, go ahead and let us know about this five-day challenge result that you had recently.

Steven Lewis
Yeah, so this is really cool. Because, you know, first, the gamification I figured out how to do in a course and Thinkific. And then people were asking me, I love that. But you know, I don't want to just do it in a course. And that got me thinking about how to pull out the same technology and apply the exact same principles in these challenges. And challenges seem to be the hot thing these days. People put out there, you know, the email, and they say, do this, and you know, and try and create the interactivity. And like that.

So here's a here's a real-life challenge that we did this just two weeks ago with the Collaborate group. And there were 200 people doing this challenge. And this was over a three-day weekend. And the idea was, how do we keep the people, the audience on the Zoom call engaged for the three days. So myself and the people who run the program came up with this concept that we would have little short quizzes, we have six of them over the three days, one in the morning and one in the afternoon each day. And it would ask three quiz questions. And then they would get points for answering these questions. And the questions were about the speakers. Okay, so the speakers, you know, so everyone paid attention because they want to be able to answer the quiz questions properly.

So they got points for answering the quiz questions. And then, after they finished the three questions of a quiz, that which they got points for, they would jump to a wheel of, a lucky wheel with more points on it. So then they get the spin the wheel, and they get, points come up, and that gets added to whatever points they accumulated for the quiz questions. And then that went to a high scores table. So we combined knowledge of what was going on in the seminar, and with luck with the wheel, because I'm Las Vegas Steve, and I have to have some luck in there. And then it went to a high scores table for everyone to see. And we did this six times. So and each time we up the points or I upped the point, so that nobody was ever out of the competition, because the next day, the points on the wheel were doubled. So if you were way behind you were still in it.

And I can honestly say, the people in the seminar, they loved it, they absolutely loved it. And they enjoyed the competition. And every day I post, I took a picture, I took a snapshot of the high scores table and posted it in the Facebook group for that seminar, and everyone was able to see what was going on and get all excited about it, and wanted to participate the next day. And that encouraged them to pay attention. And that was, you know, our unique concept of a challenge over three days, you know, but we could do the same thing over a five-day challenge or any challenge. The idea being combined questions for knowledge with a spinning wheel or some other thing for luck, and add more points and a high scores cable. And that's, I found that to be a formula for great success and keeping people engaged. And that's what we did just two weeks ago with the Collaborate people.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that sounds like a awesome strategy. And just thinking about that it could be used in so many different aspects. I mean, even if you were doing a live event or conference, that you would be able to apply the same strategy to that. And this doesn't sound like it would require, you know, really any extra software other than the wheel. So is the the wheel spinning software, is that something you created? Or was that just another application that you were using?

Steven Lewis
Well, I look on, because I'm a programmer, I looked on the web for some for some wheel software, because I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, right, Jeremy? So, so I use some software that was already created. And, you know, so that, you know, that saves time. And I also use some software for the questions to make them look nice and put it together. And if this concept really catches on, I would I could possibly make it into a product for other people to do it easily. But right now, you know, I do joint projects and do it. But it went over really, really well.

And the way that this could be used in other ways is when everyone does these challenges, and they say everyday watch this video. Well, you could watch, you could tell them to watch the video, and then you could have a little quiz or three questions on what the video was about. So you know that they watched it, and then have the spinning wheel, and then have the same high scores table, so you could run up like that.

Oh, and by the way, for over that weekend, we had three prizes. And that Amazon gift card for $300, for $200, and $100. And the top three over the weekend also got a quiz application created by me to work on their challenges. So I put myself in there in the prizes. So everybody was really excited to do it. And it just kept everybody going and interested and engaged, which is, and have fun, which is what this is all about. And I will also, Jeremy, give you a link to to one of the quizzes with the spinning wheel that you can put in show for the people to click on. So everyone can see how this works. And I will go through a high scores table, and you'll totally get it will be fun people will see.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's awesome. That would be great to see a actual representation of it. So you send me that link and I will put that into the show notes of this episode. So if you go to this episode down to the show notes, we will have these links in there. You can click on that and see a real-life example. So that's really cool.

I was going to ask you about the prizes, too. I know cash is always a great one, but have you tested different types of prizes? Or have you found that, I guess you, it sounds like you've been doing a cash prize generally. I know sometimes you got to be kind of careful with that with laws and regulations and rules. Do you always do a cash prize? Have you tried any other kind of prizes? Do you see any performing better than other ones?

Steven Lewis
Yeah, well, you know, usually, whoever I'm doing the challenge with and creating your with, they, they like to say what the prize is. And every, mostly Amazon gift cards just seem to be the easiest thing, because then people can get what they want by themselves. I was thinking for the children. You know, the interesting thing is the kids, everybody likes to just be on the high scores table and be on top with no prizes. And yeah, and these people who do the Peloton bikes, and which is the craze these days, my friend who does it says, there's a leaderboard, and everyone just fights to be on top of the leaderboard, and there's no prize.

So it really is incredible that it's in our nature to want to compete and have fun. for the kids, I was thinking about having some Dairy Queen prizes, cards, you know, for the buy dairy things and ice cream. So it's more kid oriented. I haven't done it yet. But the prizes could be, you know, as creative as you want it to be based on what you're doing with them. But so far, we've done amazon gift cards, which seems to be really cool provides for most things.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that that's cool. Yeah, I could think of probably, I guess it could be niche specifics, too. So if I was doing one for online course creators, maybe I could give a prize, like a microphone or a camera or something that would relate to whatever it is you're teaching.

Steven Lewis
Right? Right, that's a great idea. Or you could give them a half an hour of consulting time with you, things like that. So then, then you don't even have those challenges about laws. And you know, consulting time is always good to give away and you know,that's more intimate stuff, gets more interaction with the teacher.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, very good. Now, another just quick software question for the leaderboard. Are you using any special thing for the leaderboard? Is it a software? Is it just a Google Sheet or a spreadsheet? Or what what are you using to keep track and show the results?

Steven Lewis
So for the spinning wheel, I found technology already created. So that was nice. As a programmer, I know, and my experience from CRM days, and you know, everything I've learned so much about database tables, and you know, and posting points, you know, manipulating numbers. So that's where I was really able to use my knowledge of databases and reporting on databases. And this is pretty simple, because we're really just taking, you know, points and posting it.

The unique identifier is usually the email address. So pretty much of collecting email address, first name and last name once, you only collect it once, and then it remembers it in the browser, and the next time they do the game, it always remembers it. So now, if you have that, and then you post points, the points that they want to that, record, that database record, along with the date, then you have a simple database table with records with people and points, and then I can report on it. And the reporting becomes the high scores table.

On top of it being on that high scores table, there is very valuable data in there for other analysis as the teacher so you could see what's going on. And also, in these challenges, this is important that this could be great way to collect emails, and first name and last name, and as lead generation. So let's say you're running these challenges from your Facebook group. And then they do the quiz and then they do the spinning wheel. And now the first time they have to, if they want to post it, they have to put in their name, address and email. And now you've collected that, so that's another great thing about doing this and lead generation.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, you really got the wheels turning in my head about different ways that you could use these same concepts across different mediums, like you said, for lead generation, for challenges, for in person events, for online courses. It sounds like a really, really cool system. And I really like the idea that it's increasing the engagement, which is really what we're trying to do, right?

We're trying to get people to watch the information and stick with it. Because we know that if they stick with it, they'll get results. But so many people just fall off and don't complete or don't watch the whole thing. And this sounds like a really great way to keep people interested. And like you said, it provides a fun and interactive way, other than just sitting there watching someone talk the whole time.

Steven Lewis
Exactly. And it's important to try and be a little different, like, in every course, a video, and then you know, you know, just the same thing over and over, how can you be different? How can you stand out from everyone? Especially when you do your challenges? Everybody looks: Oh, another challenge? Oh, my God, you know, another challenge. But what's so great about this challenge, you know, just going to listen to the person speak. So now, I just got to tell you even I get surprised when people spin this spinning wheel, they just love that part. I mean, I just get amazed at that, you know, so it's just human nature to enjoy spinning these lucky spinning wheels.

Jeremy Deighan
Is that something that you do for every person and you do it live? Or is it just one spin and then everyone gets the points? How does that work?

Steven Lewis
No, every time they do the quiz or whatever there you know, on these challenges, they, after they do after they answer the three questions, they accumulated points for that, you know, I said a certain amount of points for every correct answer. And then they go to the spinning wheel automatically. And they get more points, and then that's total points.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay. So it's an automated process, once they complete the questions, it sends them over to another page where they click, they spin the wheel, it takes the number and then, and puts that into the database and stores it for the leaderboard.

Steven Lewis
Yeah, it's simple as that. And it's just points and numbers. I just try and keep it very simple. And it, but it just shows you human nature, people like that. And just recently, and I'm almost done with this, and I'll put this in the link to, I'm applying this to meditation principles like Jewel teaches this, the counting meditation, which is very simple. So I thought of this: every time, if the people do the meditation longer, they go to a spinning wheel with higher values in it. So that encourages the children or whoever's doing it to do their meditation longer, because then they'll get the spin for higher values. So I haven't, that's my next thought process, how to get people to meditate longer and do it and make it fun. So that's going to be an interesting one. But that's another creative way you could apply these ideas.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, like it's kind of a increasing value over time. So maybe for an online course, if you are, like you said, keeping a streak, maybe you're on a five-day streak, or a six-day streak where you've logged in every day, and you've done the lessons, the value is increasing with the points that you get. And then if you miss a day or miss a streak, maybe it starts over at the beginning, something like that.

Steven Lewis
Yes, yes, that's another way to do it, you know, just want to come up with ways that people, you know, want to keep going and not lose their streak. I'm just as guilty as not being consistent in my meditation practice. So I know that people, "Oh, I love this," and then they drop off. And, or even in a course, like they're not going in. So I know, I feel it myself. So I just, you know, like to, you know, contribute to how to solve this. And I do joint ventures with other people to add the gamification to their system. And I really do it as a partner process. So we're doing it together. So I do nonprofits, but I also do paid projects, too, you know, so if people want to partner with that I'm, I'm always open to working together on the challenges, and gamification, and courses. So that's something I wanted to put out there.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, yeah, this is this sounds really cool. And if I get any feedback, people just loving this idea of the software, then I'll reach out to you and let you know if there's a need, because you might be onto something that you could provide for people in a easier way to set it up and do these types of challenges, and gamifications automatically for the non programmers out there.

Steven Lewis
Yes, yes. And I wish I had a better solution right now for that because people see what I made and they go, I want to do that but I want to change the questions, I want to try. And I don't really have a mechanism for another people to do it. But I hope I will one day and if there's enough interest, I'll build it that way.

Jeremy Deighan
Awesome. Very cool. So where do you see yourself going forward in the future? Like, you just did these challenges, you're on doing these gamification events, but where do you see your business in the next couple years? What would you like to accomplish?

Steven Lewis
Well, if I accomplish, you know, helping a lot of nonprofit organizations with, that will make me happy. Like I said, I'm semi-retired, so I'm a little in a different spot than most people you probably have on your show. So I'm trying to help places that aren't technology savvy, and you know, but have of the things that they want to get out there. Recently I've been doing suicide prevention e-learning, and we're adding this accountability to that. So I'm really looking to give back at this point in my life to nonprofits, and then apply my technology there. And then also mix it in with create doing joint projects with people who see the value in what I create, and want to work with me to make their courses better.

I gotta tell you, Jeremy, it's funny, like, people who see it, they love it, they get it, they go, "Oh, my God, this is what I want that accountability, gamification, please, you know, let's do this." And then other people don't even get it at all. They just like, "Oh, well, I don't think I want them playing games in a course." And I go, okay, you don't really see what I'm trying to do. So it's interesting. It's like one way or the other. So I work with people who see my vision.

Jeremy Deighan
Right, definitely. Well, very cool. Well, it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast today. And if people would like to find out more about you, your business and the things that you got going on, where can they do that?

Steven Lewis
Well, you can, you can email me at SteveLewis@mindarrive.com. Okay, that's, that's not Steven, then Steve, just like it sounds, and I'm sure Jeremy have put this information out there. And if you want to use the free meditation course, I would advise that that would be a great thing to do, because you would learn about meditation from Jewel, and the course is free. And you'll see how the gamification works. And that's at inspiringchildren.thinkific.com. Okay, so again, that's inspiringchildren.thinkific.com. And Jeremy will put that there, too.

And then the best way to understand about gamification is to see the examples. And then for the challenge, there'll be a link to that as well. You know, and that one's mindarrive.com/collaborate_quiz1. And that will show you how the spinning wheel works, along with the quiz questions.

So that'll get everybody thinking, if you do it, I believe most of you will see the value and a lot of light bulbs go off in your head on how you can use that. And I'd love to work with anybody who sees, wants to work with me. I'm open to joint ventures.

Jeremy Deighan
Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Steve, for coming on the podcast today. We appreciate all of your advice and wisdom. And I think that this is definitely an episode that will get everyone's brains thinking about the way that they can add some of these elements into their own online courses in business.

Steven Lewis
Yeah, thank you for having me, Jeremy. It's a lot of fun, and I love sharing the knowledge.