The Importance of Business Storytelling to Get Your Message Across with Kirsten Back

Jeremy Deighan
Hey, everyone. Thanks for checking out the podcast today. We have Kirsten Back from The Word Distiller, who is an expert in business storytelling and copywriting and really getting your messaging right. And I think this is going to be a terrific episode to have her on the show. And really help you understand how you can get your message out to your audience to sell more courses and impact the world. So thank you so much for being on the show today. How are you doing?

Kirsten Back
Hi, Jeremy. Thanks for having me here. I'm doing great. I'm actually quite excited about this opportunity to talk to other course creators.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, for sure. This is awesome. When I first started in the online course world, I had no idea what I was doing. Storytelling was the last thing on my mind. I thought you know, courses were just teaching something you know, throw it up on a site and make money. As the years have gone on, I've learned the importance of storytelling and how it can really affect the audience, and how you can use it to drive your marketing messaging.

And so I think this is gonna be a really cool episode. I'm excited to have you here. And I always like to start at the very beginning and just kind of get an idea of where people come from. So before you kind of got into the online business online course world, what were you doing before that?

Kirsten Back
I was actually working in the corporate world for a very, very long time. I was in the pharmaceutical industry. I've also been a language teacher. But my biggest experiences in the pharmaceutical industry were my last position was Operations Manager for Europe, and I led a HAP office in Munich. So that was quite a big change. And that happened when I actually or my family moved from Germany to New Zealand. So everything, everything changed then.

Jeremy Deighan
Wow yeah, that's a big change. So then, how did you, how did you go from pharmaceuticals to this type of industry?

Kirsten Back
My background is actually in literature and linguistics. So since I was a kid, I was a bit of a word nerd. And when other kids were kind of queuing for the ice cream van, I was queuing in front of the library bus. So that was my thing. And I was reading all day long. That was my thing. I was always fascinated by the power of words.

So when I finished school, I started studying English and Russian literature, linguistics and also did a teaching degree. So I was really into words. I'm a true word nerd, and I love learning. So that was what led me to write as well. A lot of reading and the fascination with words, basically.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, and then you have this fascination of words. So how did that come about, though? What was your first introduction to being able to take that skill that you have and apply it to some kind of business?

Kirsten Back
I was still in corporate then. I was working in an environment with lots of different cultural backgrounds. And there was an awful lot of miscommunication between people. So I looked into it. And I really studied it and wanted to find out why have people got these problems with communicating when they're using the same language. And there were so many factors playing into it.

And I started creating my own way or strategy, communication strategies, with people of all sorts of backgrounds and lots of people whose first language is not English. So that had an effect. And then also with regards to written communication, because you lose a lot of the message if you write because you lose all the visual stuff that you see—the facial expressions, the gestures, the body posture, and so forth.

And when you write, I think that's only 20% of the message or something that is left. That means that you have to be very, very precise, and you have to have a lot of clarity if you want your message to get across and be received in the right manner.

So that was something that I kind of perfected during my days in corporate. And I was then picked out to write lots of company-specific communication to come up with processes and to teach. And that basically led to me loving or being fascinated with messaging.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, awesome. So you kind of find this system that's working for you. And you begin using that system to help others communicate appropriately. Where did it take you from there? At what point are you still in the corporate world? Or did you leave the corporate world to pursue this?

Kirsten Back
No, I left the corporate world. That was in 2012. And my family moved over to New Zealand. And New Zealand is an entirely different country, which is basically built on small-medium businesses. I had enough of the corporate world, and being in the pharmaceutical industry as someone with a kind of literature background. I was always a little bit of the odd one out. And I wanted to do something that I really love.

And writing, reading, basically words, and business are passions of mine. So I decided to, instead of taking another job, to start my own business. And I then did a copywriting degree and started my own copywriting business. So it took me a while to get there. But then in 2015, I started my copywriting business and made quite a few mistakes with starting my business.

Until I reached the point where I wasn't only copywriting, but where I actually developed some courses to teach people how to write their own copy, and I think now we're getting to the more interesting part for your audience because course creation is such a hot topic at the moment.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. So you start this business, and you are helping others with their copywriting and with their messaging. And then you realize, you know, "Hey, I could put this into an online course and provide that for people," so that they could learn it on their own terms?

Kirsten Back
Yes, right. So when I was working with clients, I am very, very inquisitive. And because I've also got a business background, I know what you need to know about your business, your business foundations. And that kind of circles all around yourself, who you are as a person, what your strengths are, what you're really, really good at, what your differentiation is. Then your customer, how well they know their business, as well. Then about your offer, what you give them to solve their problems.

And that is something where a lot of businesses have issues. They are not very clear on their business foundation sometimes and how to communicate what their business is about. They are quite unclear about their brand and their brand messaging.

So when you ask them, for example, "What is your brand story?" They cannot tell you that. They don't know. And they don't even know how to discover that. And that is something so essential to have your brand sorted out. To know who you are as an entrepreneur. How you can add value, how you serve your clients differently, and then translate that into the words that resonate with them.

When I was writing copy, I was always finding that these businesses and people or entrepreneurs I worked with. They were struggling with that. So yeah, I asked lots of questions. And I helped them extracting the exact language they needed to talk about their business, to pitch their business, to write about their business, or the content they're writing, or the copy they're writing on the sales page to know exactly what the pain points are of the audience, how to write about them, how to write a sales page that doesn't sound generic and like it's been created through some sort of AI copywriting tool, which is so popular right now.

So basically, creating a course was founded on the needs of my customers that they needed this messaging clarity to be able to talk about their business and their services in a way that resonates with their perfect client.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, perfect. Yeah, that sounds great. Let's go ahead and kind of dive into that and find out more. So let's say that I have created or I want to create an online course. And we can use any industry. Let's say it's a fitness niche or something like that. I'm a fitness coach, and I want to take my business online.

And I know the fitness, I know how to teach, I know how to train people, but I have no idea of how to get my message in front of the right ideal customer. So, what would be your recommendation if I came to you? What is your system, or what would you recommend to someone who's starting out down this journey that they should be doing?

Kirsten Back
Well, I would start with you as a person. And then I would help you, or I would ask you to prepare an inventory. And this inventory would be formal things like what your background is, what kind of qualifications you have, what jobs you have done, what hobbies you've got, what you enjoy doing, and then see.

Okay, for someone, for example, in the fitness industry, that might be someone who has been a high-performance swimmer, for example, who has retired from competitive swimming, and now says, "Right, I want to teach other people to become fit, because that's what I've done for years."

And then basically write down what are the skills that you have acquired that will serve you and your clients when you teach. So it could be, for example, about mindset. So that you having been a competitive swimmer, you have to have a certain mindset that works for you so that you compete and don't fall apart before the competition. It could be about nutrition, for example, how you maybe get lean before competitions. It could be about a certain type of exercises to maybe gain strength, or speed, or whatever it is, and how you can best help your clients learning that.

So when you translate your skills and then translate them into the benefits that you can offer your clients and the long-term outcomes, that is something that is very, very powerful. Because then you come up with stories, as well, where you maybe help a specific person who, I don't know, maybe is recovering from a health issue or something, or had an injury and wants to get back on track to compete competitively again. So you've got these abilities to help that person specifically. And it also then gives you a better insight how you can niche down and find exactly the right people you want to be working with.

Because you see, the fitness industry is pretty broad. And you find anything from people who are more, maybe nutrition-focused, or who are focused on people who have joint problems and need some soft exercises. Or maybe for older people doing chair yoga. Or for maybe teenagers coping with getting into very competitive sports, and balancing school work and all that. So that helps. Looking at yourself helps you very, very much with finding your niche.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, very cool. So we go through, we take this inventory, and we're getting this information about us so that we can begin crafting that messaging for our audience. But why do you think that storytelling is so important?

Because I know, from my experience, and from other experiences, you know, if you don't use storytelling, you go out, and you start talking about, you know, all the things that are involved in the course. There are these many lectures, and I'm going to teach you how to do this exercise. But why is storytelling such an integral part of this messaging that you're creating?

Kirsten Back
Well, the first thing is that our brains are hardwired for storytelling. And that goes back to our development as human beings. Survival depended on these stories. So when someone said, "Don't eat these, whatever, blueberries here, because you die." If you pack that up in a story, how little George went and ate these berries, and then keeled over, that is a lot more. You memorize that a lot better. And that's one thing, why storytelling is so powerful.

Basically, storytelling helps us with remembering things with remembering facts. Whereas if we, for example, try to memorize some data, it's incredibly hard. But if we wrap that up in a story, then we remember it a lot easier. The reason for that is that when we're telling stories, we are able to, how can I say, the bad word is manipulate our audience. Because during storytelling, we're pulling people into our stories, and hormones are released.

So if you, for example, are telling a very sad story about whatever, maybe you had a child, and it had cancer, and when it was young, it died. Then your audience is empathetic with that. And there's lots of oxytocin that is floating around in their bodies in their brain. And that helps you remembering things because you remember how you felt when you were told a story.

And if you then also use some storytelling plots that are archetypes. There are certain story plots and storylines that are always the same. And they are also pre-programmed into our brains. If you follow these plots, then you basically have people following you along because they know instinctively what a good story is. And we're just wired for it. We can't help ourselves. That's why we buy books. We watch movies, we buy magazines, short stories, anything, watch Netflix for hours because we're addicted to stories.

Jeremy Deighan
Oh, yeah, that's great. You hit on so many great points here. I want to see if I can get to all of them. First of all, you talked about the ability to memorize things more. And this reminds me of a show I was watching, I think it was a documentary, or maybe it was a Facebook video. And it was this guy who had an incredible memory. He was like one of the best, I don't know what you call them, memorizers in the world. And he was able to memorize like a deck of cards, you know, just flipping through at one time and could remember the whole order of the cards.

And I remember the host asking him, and this just was crazy. I still, to this day, can't believe this. But he said, "How do you memorize those cards in that order so quickly?" And what he said was, he associates each card with a story that he makes in his mind. So he will say, he walks into the room, and there is a knife on the table, and that's the Two of Clubs. And then he walks down the hallway, and he trips over the cat, and that's the Three of Hearts. This wasn't his example. I'm just trying to come up with some.

But when he goes back to recall that information, all he has to do is associate the story with that card and say, "I walk in, there's a knife, and then I trip over the cat." But because he associated the cards with that story, it allows him to memorize that. And I just thought that was one of the coolest things ever that you could actually get the brain to do that.

Kirsten Back
Yes. And when I was doing my MBA, I was in a lecture, and there was a guy who was teaching exactly that, how to memorize facts through a story. And it was amazing. And it was exactly like you said that he builds stories around every data point he wants to remember.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, awesome. And then you also talked about the brain actually producing chemicals. And I am by far no means a scientist, and I've never studied this stuff. But I've always been fascinated with the things that are actually going on inside of the body. And you talked about the different chemicals that are being released. And, you know, it just makes a lot of sense because I'm a very empath type person. Like when someone gets cut on TV, I feel that you know? I'm like, I'm cringing from that.

So it's wild to think that storytelling can actually bring out these emotions in people. The fact that you could sit there and watch a movie, you know it's fiction, you know it's a superhero, the guy's not real, you know? It's a comic book that was made up, but he dies, and you're sitting there crying like tears are running down your eyes. So this is really cool. I really like this subject. I think that it's really neat.

So, thinking about the people who are out there. Like if we did this for ourselves, we would take a self-inventory. So my name is Jeremy. I like to surf, I like to play guitar, I like online courses, and I start taking this inventory. And then what would be the next process? Would I start coming up with stories that have happened in my life that I can tell and relate to trying to help the audience understand what it is I'm teaching or what I'm trying to convey?

Kirsten Back
Let's play this through maybe in a couple of minutes. So you said you like playing guitar? So what is a skill that you've learned through playing the guitar?

Jeremy Deighan
Other than chords and progressions?

Kirsten Back
Yes, yes. I don't know. It could be like memorizing melodies, or it could be a certain way that you learn, for example. Some people learn better through repeating patterns because our brains are always looking for patterns. Other people, they learn music by listening, then some need to see the notes or the chords written down.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, I'm a very pattern-type person. So my best friend has one of those ears where he can tell you what notes being played. I've never been that person. But if I see the hand, like I can look at someone playing, a famous musician, and by looking at their hand, like on a live video or in a concert, I can see the chord progressions they're using. The 1-4-6-5 or whatever chord progression that is by the shape of their hands.

Kirsten Back
So if we then say, okay, let's take that. It's a bit of a big jump. But if you take that and say, "Okay, I'm producing an online course now, or an online course on how to produce online courses." That means that you need this visual part to memorize and to learn so that you think, "Okay, how could I build that into my online course?" So I can do that, for example, through video.

If I create videos that show something like when you record your screen on Loom, for example. There are certain things that you need to do. Maybe when you set up your course platform, and you're using a certain platform, then you say, "Okay, like I like to look at the hand of a guitar player, here, you can look at my screen how I set up my platform," for example. And then that is something that helps.

You can then, once you've worked with a few clients, maybe there was a client who said, "You know, I'm a total, I can say I'm tech-phobic. I can't deal with tech. But your little videos, Loom videos that show me exactly what I have to do, have basically changed everything because they have helped me to do certain things myself. I don't need a consultant now or a contractor to do these little things around my platform because now I understand how to do them myself. So for me, I've become a lot more independent, I can do it quickly. I don't have to wait for other people, for experts, I don't have to pay them a lot of money to do it. Because I can now do it myself."

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, awesome. So by looking kind of inward at ourselves and seeing what's working with us, we can use that information to convey that to others?

Kirsten Back
Yes. And, of course, you always need to understand who your client is, and to go into very much detail about your customer avatar, and see what they need. And what their needs are, that's very, very important so that you can provide that.

Kirsten Back
So if you, for example, work with an over 70 audience who's not very good with tech, then you know that you have to maybe provide a little bit stronger tech support. If you're working with a fairly young audience, somewhere in their 20's, they possibly pick that up really, really quickly.

Jeremy Deighan
So the last thing that you had mentioned that I wanted to ask you about too was you said that there were some kind of standard story archetypes, things that are pretty common in storytelling. So can you elaborate a little more on that?

Kirsten Back
There are, in fact, there are seven story archetypes. So archetypes go back to Carl Jung, who was a psychologist and kind of the same time as Sigmund Freud. And he did a lot of research on the subconscious mind. He basically said that in our subconscious minds, there are certain patterns that are programmed into our minds. And these, when you have a computer, this is a program that runs in the background, you don't see that. That's where you process information. So in our subconscious minds, we process information a lot faster and automatically.

Kirsten Back
So like when you're riding a bike you don't need to think about riding a bike, because that's already automatic. You know that you have to pedal and steer and keep the balance. And it's the same with storytelling. There are some storytelling plots that are pre-programmed in our minds and that we can relate to.

So one plot, for example, is the Rags to Riches story. And that's the typical American dream story where someone starts maybe washing dishes and becomes a millionaire. So that's one typical story plot. And we see that in so many films where someone, whatever, Slumdog Millionaire, for example. That's a typical example of that story plot.

There's another one which is called Overcoming the Monster. And that is a story where life is lovely, life is brilliant, and then all of a sudden, something drastic happens that turns our lives upside down. And then this story is about how you're finding your feet and how you're digging yourself out of that hole and rebuild your life.

Very often, people use that, for example, when they've had an accident or something quite uprooting happens in their lives and how they then rebuild their lives from scratch. So these are just two patterns that work really, really well. One that doesn't work very well in business storytelling is a tragedy. But the other six they do well enough.

Jeremy Deighan
Maybe in Greek plays but not in online business.

Kirsten Back
No, good one. You know, there's another one called The Quest, which is kind of The Hobbit type story, not that you need hairy feet and all. But it's about that you have always wanted to do something. You've always had this call that's led you in a certain direction and a certain passion, and that you kind of create a community around you to make this dream come true. And that's very often used for NGOs and not-for-profit companies.

Kirsten Back
TOMS Shoes, for example, as well. They've got this mission of helping poor people to have shoes, basically. So when you buy a pair of shoes, TOMS gives one pair of shoes to someone in need. When you tell that story around that, that's a typical kind of quest-type story.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, I love that. I'm not familiar with TOMS Shoes. But there's another one that I've seen advertisements for, which is a sock company, and I forget the name of it now. But it was the same thing. Their mission is to help homeless people get socks because that's like one of the most needed things, you know, to keep warm and keep comfort. And it's a necessity that homeless people lack and they really need help with.

And so I saw this commercial, talking exactly what you're speaking on here. And I think it's brilliant, because they come on, and they talk about how great their socks are. But they say that their mission isn't just to be a sock company, but it's to help these homeless people. And that sticks in the mind because it makes you think, like, "Okay, this isn't just, you know, Hanes socks, trying to sell another pair of socks." These people are actually on a mission to do something much greater than just the business that they're in.

Kirsten Back
And what happens there, again, is that empathy thing. The oxytocin, because when we buy those socks, we know we feel good. We know we've helped someone else or a homeless person to have a pair of socks, and that makes us feel good. And we remember emotions a lot better.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, that's awesome. So, we take this inventory, and then we start thinking about the stories that we could tell. And then how can we apply those? So going back to, you know, the people who are listening who are online course creators, and they're out there making these courses, and they have these skills. How can they use the stories? Like, I guess we gave an example right there with the socks. But what are some other ways that you can use the stories in your messaging and in your positioning?

Kirsten Back
One thing, social media is actually brilliant. You can do it in your social media posts. So when you're working with clients, for example, you can post customer success stories that in your feed you say, "I've just worked with this customer. And we started out the customer started out at this point, then we did x, y, z. And now the customer is achieving" whatever, his biggest dreams. So that's one very, very good way of using a story to build your credibility.

Kirsten Back
And you can do that in your home feed, for example, on Facebook. Or you can use it on your website. When you write your About Me page, you can put a little story about yourself, how you came to be, who you are and what you do so that people follow your values. They understand the values that you're also putting in through your brand stories through your origin story.

And that also creates a connection because people who believe in the same values, who believe in the same message and the same thing, they're more likely to buy from you. So you can feed that into your website, you can feed that into your Instagram posts. Little stories that you've encountered.

So, for example, I was stuck in a traffic jam, and there was this guy on the right whose job it was to flip a stop and go sign round, backward, and forwards to let traffic through. And he was doing that all day. And I was sitting there looking at him and thinking, "How can he bear it to just do that? To flip this traffic sign?" And then he talks his walkie-talkie and lets the next batch of cars through.

I saw him just frantically typing on his phone, and I thought, "Goodness me, maybe he's just doing this part-time. Maybe he's a business person, or he's setting up his first business and has some ideas he's typing down. Or maybe he's a chef in his spare time and has come up with a new recipe." So I was kind of building stories around that.

And we find these kinds of stories everywhere, and we can relate them to our business. And that's the beauty of it. We just need to go through our day and reflect it a little bit more and stop at things too. For example, when you are in the supermarket in checkout, and there's a toddler throwing a tantrum because it wants some sweets.

And you think, "Okay, how can I relate that to my business? Like, how can I maybe, as a course creator, how can I get through to people who are kind of in a bad situation? Who are maybe beyond teaching? How can I calm them down and bring them down? So maybe I have a way of doing that." And you can relate that to your skills and how you work with people. Find stories everywhere.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, they truly are everywhere. And I've done that more myself. And I've even started writing them down so that I could remember them. So when a topic comes up, typically, someone's not going to buy your product, your service, or your course because they have an objection to something. They don't believe something is possible. And you have to just help them get past that objection and understand that it is possible.

And just telling them like, "No, you can do it," isn't enough. And I found that the storytelling really helps out here. And if I can take an objection and apply a story to it, then when that objection comes up, it makes it easier for me to handle that objection.

And so I've done this too, you know. We go to a restaurant, and we have a bad customer service experience. And then I'll come on, and I'll do a Facebook Live or something in my training where I'll tell that story. Like we were in the restaurant, and this and this happened, and then tie that back into the thing that I'm really trying to talk about, the main objection. And I've found that to be very, very powerful.

Kirsten Back
Yes, it is. And it's also good fun because you never run out of topics. And that's one problem that a lot of course creators have. When they start with a business, they're asking themselves, you know, "How should I keep going with my content creation? And how, what shall I write about? And how am I going to find all the topics to talk about?"

Kirsten Back
And that's one thing is just go through your day a little bit more reflectively, and pick out those stories. And then you've always got something to write about. So that also helps you then with what you can talk about and what you mentioned about overcoming objections. That's exactly that.

That's something actually that my sales coach taught me that she said, "You need to know the objections that your clients or prospects might have in advance. And then prepare the stories you're going to tell them when this objection comes up. Or even better, tell those stories before the objection comes up."

Jeremy Deighan
Hmm, that's great. That's awesome. Cool. So, just thinking about the person listening now who is in the beginning of their journey or the early stages, or maybe they've been along in the journey, but they haven't really cracked the code and copywriting and storytelling. What would be a piece of advice that you could give to that person listening right now?

Kirsten Back
I would say copywriting is not a gift that you're given. Copywriting is a craft that you can learn. And if you approach it step by step, then you can become your own best copywriters, and you actually are the best person to write your own copy because you know your business inside out.

Kirsten Back
So copywriting is nothing scary. You can learn it. And if you pick an area to start with, and learn that step by step, then you'll be alright. You're kind of on a good journey.

Jeremy Deighan
Awesome, perfect. So just looking forward to your own business going forward from here in the next couple of years, five years, ten years down the road. What do you see for yourself? What would you like to accomplish?

Kirsten Back
I love working with people one-to-one. But I also love online teaching. So I want to build out my business a little bit more. But I don't want to lose my one-to-one component because I just simply love it. So going forward, I would really like to build out a school for entrepreneurs to learn how to write their own copy and content, how to define and be confident in their brand messaging, and having a strategy so that they're not struggling with what they say. Then one day they're saying something, and the next day, they're writing something else that contradicts what they said before.

Kirsten Back
So for me, it's important that I help people to find that clarity around their brand, so they know what they need to talk about and who they are as a brand, who they are as a business, and that they're kind of bringing the right message into the world consistently.

Jeremy Deighan
Well, I think you're going to do a great job. And I think you're absolutely brilliant. And it's just so awesome having you come on here. I feel like we could talk for hours on this subject because I just love it. And you've got a great wealth of knowledge.

But if anyone out there wants to learn more about you and your business and see what you have to offer, where can they find you online?

Kirsten Back
Well, the first thing is they can look me up, or they can Google me as The Word Distiller and find my website. I am also on Facebook, on Pinterest, which is actually really brilliant for content creation. Yeah, and on LinkedIn. But if you look up www.theworddistiller.com, you'll definitely find me.

Kirsten Back
And I also have a little storytelling course on there if you want to learn more about storytelling. And we've been talking about storytelling so much, so that could be interesting for you if you're listening to this episode.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, perfect. I'll make sure that I put all of those links in the show notes. Kirsten, thank you so much for coming on today. I just really appreciate you taking your time and sharing your knowledge and your expertise.

I know people are gonna love looking you up and finding out more. And we just really appreciate you coming on the show today.

Kirsten Back
Thank you, Jeremy, for having me. It was huge fun. I hope, well, I will definitely listen to more episodes of your podcast because this one has also made me really, really curious to learn more about your podcast.

Jeremy Deighan
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Have a good day.

Kirsten Back
You too, bye.