Organic SEO and Email List Building Tips with Long-Time Course Creator Rob Cubbon

Jeremy Deighan
Hello, everyone. Thanks for checking out the podcast. Today, we have Rob Cubbon, a very long term online course instructor. I'm super excited to have you here today. How's it going, Rob?

Rob Cubbon
I'm doing well, Jeremy. Thanks for having me on.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. You have been in the online business and the online course creation business for quite some time. I might have heard about you before I even started doing courses on Udemy back in the day. I remember reading some of your blog posts. And I think you had some YouTube videos that answered a lot of questions that I had when I was getting in the game.

So I'm excited to hear how you got started, and where it has taken you, and what you're doing today. I would love to hear how you got started, if you want to take a moment and tell us where you began. Maybe what you were doing before you got into online business, how you got into online business, and then how did you transition into online courses?

Rob Cubbon
Okay. It goes back to London. I was living and working in London, and I was doing print design freelance work in London. So just like everyone else, I was going to work, commuting every day to offices, and I didn't really like it. I thought I'd be doing that for the rest of my life.

But I just was interested in the internet. This is early 2000s now, you see. So going back 2003, 2004, that sort of time. So I started playing around with websites, but nothing really happened until I got WordPress and I started blogging. And then really things started happening for me.

This is actually nothing to do with online courses. Also, you've got to realize, Jeremy, as you know better than anyone that things change so much every year. So as you can imagine, 2004, 2005 Google search engine wasn't as sophisticated as it is now.

So it was a lot easier to rank for quite good keywords back in those days. So that's what started it for me because I just basically started to get work. Just do freelance work, but from home, which was such a boon for me. It was such a development because it meant I was my own boss.

That was the moment where I became my own boss in 2005. Instead of going to offices and doing work for clients through a third party company that took all the money, I could just work directly for the clients, which I would find through my website, get paid much better hourly rates, and do much more interesting work than I was doing when I was working for other people.

So that's how it started, really. It was all about creating content on my website. Nowadays, you've got to do a whole lot more in order to get traffic to a website and indeed traffic to a YouTube channel. But that's honestly what I started doing.

And I started doing the YouTube videos only as it was a good SEO factor for my site. Little did I know that YouTube is actually a great way to sell products. It's a great way to build an audience as well apart from the web and the blog.

Anyway, I was just really into blogging, really into making money from home from my own business as opposed to working for other people. I really loved it. It was really transformational for me. And because of that, I got to follow a lot of other bloggers like Pat Flynn and ProBlogger and lots of other people like that.

I then started making products and started an email list because I just thought it was so interesting. Apart from what I was doing, I was working for clients building websites. I taught myself web design and WordPress. So that's what I was doing. And part time, I sold products.

The first products I sold were PDF eBooks, actually. But then, what happened was a friend of mine said that they'd put a course on Udemy. And I thought, "Well, that sounds interesting. I do videos, so maybe I could do a course." So she gave me a coupon for her course, a lady called Tara Roskell. She had a course on logo design.

And I just thought, "Well, that's just amazing. She's just given me this coupon and I get access to her course." So I think something clicked inside me and I just thought, "Well, I'll just put a course on Udemy and see how it goes." And that was in 2013, Jeremy.

So a lot has happened since then. But Udemy really helped me. Udemy was the reason I first started making enough money passively so I didn't have to work actively.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah. And I remember reading your blog post and you were posting income reports for what you were making on Udemy. And I think that you really helped bring a lot of people into that space. Because, like I said, I remember reading those and getting super pumped up at the possibilities.

And what you were making online, I never knew that that was even possible when I came into it because I started around like 2014, 2015. I started doing like T shirts and someone did the same thing. They recommended checking out Udemy. I went on there and put a course up and then saw the potential.

So that's really awesome. It's cool to hear. You've been at the game for a very long time. I don't know if some of our listeners were even online back in 2004.

Rob Cubbon
Yeah, as I say, it was a different world in those days.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, even Udemy was a lot different. So what was that like in the very beginning? Well, first of all, do you remember what the first course you created on the platform was?

Rob Cubbon
Oh, yeah, of course, I remember. Well, actually, I did a free course first because I already had a load of videos on YouTube that were to do with creating a site on WordPress. So I just strung them all together in a course on Udemy.

And then I started getting students. It was too bad, I could not put a price on it. So I had it as a free course on Udemy. But then I got my head down and spent the next month doing a much better quality course on exactly the same material, which was building a website on WordPress for a client.

So it was kind of a website for a fictitious design company and the process you'd go through in order to create that. So I did that. And that was the first course. It was quite easy to get sales, actually, because I already had an email list at that time.

So I could send some of my audience to the course. And it started selling. And as you know, back in those days, if you had a course that was selling, if you could give it a bit of a kickstart with your own audience and they liked it, then there was a good chance that Udemy would then promote it. And it'll be a bigger hit with the wider Udemy audience. And it was.

Jeremy Deighan
Nice. Yeah, even to this day, I think that driving promotions to the platform gives it that kind of boost. I guess the algorithm sees that people are coming in and buying and taking it and then that kind of boosts it up.

So what were those early days like when you first put your course on there? What was going on in your head? Did you think it was going to be a success or did you see success right away?

Rob Cubbon
I don't know. Everything else was going pretty well as well. It wasn't just that. There was the eBook sales and the traffic was going well and the signups were going well. And my business was going well. So it was just an all-around good time to be online actually, at that time.

And I remember we had a Facebook group—it doesn't exist anymore—for successful instructors. So Phil was on there. I got to know a lot of other successful instructors. And that was really interesting. And I also was writing KDP and Amazon books. I was writing Kindles and paperbacks on Amazon.

And I wrote a book about how to sell online courses as well, which was very Udemy-focused. But I have to say, Udemy brought in more than anything else did because the platform was doing so well. At one stage, I remember them saying they had a million users, and now they've got 20 million.

So we must have hit that sort of explosion of growth, and there wasn't much other competition in those ways. And they had some money to throw at it. And it was doing pretty well. I just remember meeting all the other instructors in the Facebook group and it was a very interesting time.

But I was just keen to make more courses and more books. Also, as we're going to bring the story along, as the years went by, and I saw the importance of diversifying my income streams. And I started to sell the courses from my own site as well.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, and I would definitely love to get into that and talk about that. Because I would say the marketplaces are great. They can help you with some of that marketing and advertising in the beginning and get people to know you. A lot of people know me through Udemy now. And I've grown quite a big audience.

But I feel that is important that to have a fully-functional business, you really got to have your own platform, your own website. So you had already started some of that, which is great. We can dive into a lot of different topics here based on your website strategy, your YouTube, and your book. But what was the main reason that you felt that you needed to focus putting courses on your own platform versus just going all in on Udemy?

Rob Cubbon
Well, it was a mantra from other online entrepreneurs, as you just said it. You don't put all your eggs in one basket. And certainly, don't rely on a platform that you have no control over because they could kick you off. And they did kick people off. Although, honestly, I wasn't doing anything wrong so they never kicked me off.

But I have to say another thing, Jeremy. You probably don't remember this, but they changed their pricing strategy. You do remember that. And suddenly, my sales sort of fell by 50% in one month. I'm not sure what it was, whether it was a glitch.

I know after a three-month period, they sort of said, "Oh, well, that was a bit of a mistake." They were trying to get away from the $10 model and they've never successfully done that. Anyway, that was the spark.

But I have to say, Jeremy, it took me years and years. Even though I had my own audience, I made a few really bad mistakes. The worst thing I did is I chose the wrong platform to sell my courses from on my site. It was just before Teachable took off, you see. It was too long ago.

And if I'd started a few years ago, I'd have gone, bang, Teachable or, bang, Thinkific or even LearnDash. But back then, they weren't around. I think Teachable was but it used Fedora. It wasn't the product that it is today.

And I was using these terrible membership plugins that really worked badly. The last one I use actually got my site hacked. I didn't make money, obviously, but it was kind of a very unsatisfactory period because I didn't get it to work the way I wanted to. I wasn't giving my customers a good service because I kept on changing the platforms and having to tell them, "Oh, can you log in again?" It was just terrible.

Whereas if I'd started with Teachable or Thinkific, then none of that would have happened. But you live and learn and that was a huge learning curve. Getting hacked was a learning curve I can say.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, never fun.

Rob Cubbon
Yeah, but what it taught me, at the end of the day, let's say if I went straight to Teachable, things would have been a lot better. But it made me realize that once you have a good email list of an audience that knows and likes and trusts you, and you are regularly giving them good content through emails...

I would say you need just a few thousand email addresses, but they need to be hot. They need to be recently signed up and obviously engaged with you. Once you've got, that I would say you can make as much, although it depends on a lot of other factors. But I found I could make as much on my site as I could on Udemy with those few thousand email addresses.

So after that, it was just a matter of increasing the number of email addresses on my list and increasing the signups. And that has just been a question of creating content on the blog and creating content on YouTube. And then trying to get people to sign up for a free offer, which is either a free eBook or a free course.

And then, promoting via email to those people who already have registered an interest in your material. So it took me a long time, but it's basically quite simple, at the end of the day. You just need a few thousand email addresses, I think.

Jeremy Deighan
You talked about the Smart Passive Income and Pat Flynn, I believe, earlier. And he said at one point that I think his site got hacked or something happened to his website. And the story he tells is that his site went down. Or maybe it was when he had the wrong URL name and they told him he had to shut it down and change the name.

Something happened and he still had his email list. And that was one thing that he always said that stuck out to me, "Even though my website was shut down, I was still able to contact people." And that is why I think emails are so important.

If your whole business is on any platform, it doesn't just have to be Udemy. Maybe your whole business is built off of YouTube, or WordPress and blogging, or podcasting. If something happens; if the site goes down, or the company goes bankrupt, or they kick you off the platform, for whatever reason, at least you have those contacts.

So I think emails are very important. Let's break it down a little bit more just for people who are maybe new to the game or just starting out. So you mentioned, you believe one of the best things to do is offer like a free guide or a free course to get those emails?

Yeah, definitely. For me, a free course is worth more. And now this could be to do with my audience, you don't know. But for some reason, they go for the free courses much more than the free eBook. I haven't tested it too widely, but for sure, that's how I see it.

Rob Cubbon
Now, if I create a new product, I'll also create a free course. It's pretty easy to create a free course because, basically, it could be just 25 minutes of video. So you could get four or five free via YouTube videos. And if they all-in-all explain something, you can do an intro and an outro. And then that's a free course and it's very easy to create it on Teachable or Thinkific.

And then you put it out there for nothing. People love it. If you send an email, then, to these are email subscribers you've already got so it doesn't really matter. But even if you did, you send an email to them, you get really good open rates and really good click-through rates and really good conversion rates if it's a free course.

Same with a free eBook as well. I've done that many times. Then you can just say, because I've got six free courses. If I'm doing any sort of blog post or YouTube video, and I haven't got anything else to sell, I'll just say, "If you're interested in this subject and you want to dive more deeply into this, then I have a free course that's available on my site. The link is underneath. Just click on that and you can access the free course."

Now in order to get the free course, they know they've got to sign up. And because they're signing up, and then they know that I'm going to get their email address. And if they don't like the emails I send them, they can always unsubscribe. So I think everyone's a winner.

Jeremy Deighan
Now, when someone talks about having a free course, and then you're trying to get them into your paid products, one of the big problems, or biggest concerns that people have is that people who are going to take the free course just want the free stuff, and they're not going to ever buy your other course. Do you find that to be true?

Rob Cubbon
Well, yeah. I suppose for maybe 70 or 80% of them, that's the case. But it's always going to be the sort of 80-20 thing. It's always going to be maybe 1% or 2% of the email list buy the product. And even so, it's going to be a huge amount of money. If you've got an email list of 20,000 subscribers and 2% of them buy a product at 100 bucks, that's a good payday.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah. And I like when people start talking about percentages because I'm a numbers guy. And then it just becomes numbers at that point, right? If you have a 10 people on your list, maybe no one purchases. 1, 000, you get two or three people, you get 10,000. So then it just becomes numbers. All you have to do is increase those numbers.

So once you get people on your email list, what do you do? How do you handle them? Do you have some kind of launch strategy? Or you just sending out weekly or daily emails of content? What do you do once they have entered that list?

Rob Cubbon
To be honest with you, nothing too sophisticated, personally. Okay, every time they sign up for something, I do put them on a sequence, which I have thought about and tested. I've put a lot of effort into them because there's four or five different sequences, depending on what they sign up for.

And at the end of that, there's a call to action to buy a product that's in the same niche as what the free product was that they signed up for. But I have to say, Jeremy, that more importantly and more successfully, I email them once every week, or once every two or three weeks. And it will be either content or an offer.

And the content is like Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook or something. So you do three bits of content, and then you do an offer. You don't have to, but you don't want to do offer after offer, buy something. You don't want to have three or four sales emails in a row. Because then, I'm assuming, you'll get unsubscribes.

But I've never tried, to be honest with you. I've always done it like this. I haven't tested it because it works. Most of them most of the success I've had comes from the actual campaigns I send out that are live. So they go out to everyone and say, "Hey, I've been telling you about this new product." So, it doesn't come out of the blue.

I've already given them a lot of content around a certain subject. And then I come in with the paid course. And they know it's going to come. And there'll always be some time bound offer saying, "I'm giving you the launch price, the early bird price, which is 25% of the price." I'll say, "I'll give it to you for $49. It's going to be on sale for $199 but it's going to be at $49 for the next week or so?"

And that's the one that does really well. Because then you can follow up as well and say, "You're almost out of time. Another 24 hours so if you haven't made your mind up yet, now's the time to buy it because it's going to go up at the end of the 24-hour period."

So it's not sophisticated at all, Jeremy. Basically, we're sending people emails that are mostly content. And then when I've got a product ready, I'll sell it as I described just now with a bit of a time bound offer so people think it's scarce. Yeah, add that scarcity element to it.

Then periodically, I'll do sales and stuff like that. But as I say, it's Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. It's always interspersed with more content than there is sales emails.

Jeremy Deighan
So how often would you say that you're producing new content? Are you doing, say, a new course every month or every six months? How often is a cycle that you feel like you're producing?

Rob Cubbon
Well, when I was working hard at the courses, I would do a course every month. But that's really, I mean, I'll say every two months. Yeah, that's pretty pushing it. If you're talking a four or five-hour course, that is pushing it. So let's say two months. I don't do it all the time now but I certainly used to.

I used to write books in a month as well. These would be 15,000 words or even more. And I used to think a month is a good goal to set yourself if you don't make it and you do it in six weeks, it's not the end of the world. You still got the product out.

So that's how I like to do. And as for content, I'll say I'll do once a week, either a blog post or a YouTube video.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's pretty good. I like your one month goal. I think that's doable. It really lights a fire underneath you. I talk to some people and they say, "I've been working on my course for eight months." And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, just put something out there already."

Rob Cubbon
That's a rookie mistake that I try to say to everyone, but it's probably their first course as well. I'm lucky, one of my best character traits for being an entrepreneur is I'm not a perfectionist. If you're a perfectionist, then you're in trouble if you want to get products out quickly, because you really just need to publish and be damned.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, it's absolutely true. Because I am the perfectionist type. And I've learned over the years to try to shed some of that. Before, it was, I had all the cameras and the lighting and the backdrops and stuff. And nowadays, it's just like, "What's the minimal that I could do that gets the message across?" You still want it to sound good and look decent. But I think that people put way too much emphasis on that in the beginning, just because that's the fun stuff, the tech.

Rob Cubbon
Well, exactly. The other thing to remember is, as you know as well as me, you're never going to be successful with your first course. You're never going to be successful with your first book. You're never going to be successful with your first product unless you're extremely lucky.

Most people make quite a few of them and then they start getting good at it. So it makes sense to get the first one out the door so you can go on to the next one and then the next one. And sooner or later, you'll hit the jackpot.

Jeremy Deighan
Nice. I like that. So this is great. So you have your free course, you get the email addresses. Now you have an audience that you can nurture. You're sending tons of content and value, and then sprinkling in some promotions here and there for new products.

Let's talk a little bit more about your traffic strategy, and the content that you're doing. I know YouTube is kind of a big one for you. And then you have your blog, which is great for SEO purposes. Are you doing anything else outside of those two?

Rob Cubbon
I am but you're right to concentrate on those two. Everything else is kind of secondary to those two in terms of content.

Jeremy Deighan
So what do you see working really well? We can talk about the past for YouTube, but it's kind of irrelevant because these things change so often. So in 2020, today, what are you seeing either with the blog and the SEO or with the YouTube channel? What's working out really well? Or how are you handling the content of these platforms?

Rob Cubbon
Well, SEO, whether it's Google SEO or YouTube SEO, we could talk all night about that. And it's really changed. Your audience, probably, they already know this. But it's all about links and authority for Google. Which is a shame because it means that if you've got a new website, it's extremely hard to rank it. But as I explained to you earlier on, I've had this website since 2005.

So I did get some good authority early days for it and good organic links. The problem with me talking about SEO is I'm thinking I'm going to be talking to people who haven't started yet. And I've got this huge advantage because I started 15 years ago.

So if I write one article with a certain title, it will do better than the same person who writes the same article with the same title on a new site. Just because my site has the authority. But that's not going to help anyone who's listening to this and hasn't got a site yet. I wouldn't give up. I'm not saying don't do it. But the way I did it is I did it the white hat way.

I just created good content and I made acquaintances with other content creators. Like other Udemy instructors, other bloggers, other YouTubers, and you get friendly with them because you're talking about same subjects. You're passionate about the same subjects. And so they link to you without asking. That's the way I do it.

These days, people buy links and spend a fortune with SEO companies. And I'm pleased to say I've never done that. I've been lucky because I've done it all for free. I did it all the right way, all the white hat way. And the way I did it was just searching Google for keywords, finding which keywords are hot.

It's the same technique on YouTube. You think of an idea of a YouTube video or a blog post, and you key it in and see what comes up. And then you'll immediately see how you can play around with the keywords, which keywords are hot. Because you can see which ones are coming up.

And you can you can test it as well. Put in a keyword that you think is going well. And then what you'll find is some blog posts do better than other blog posts. Some YouTube videos do better than other YouTube videos. So you just capitalize on the ones that have been successful already.

And once you have a successful keyword on YouTube or WordPress, then you've got to think, "Oh, can I make a course on that?" Because if it's a successful keyword on the search engines, you can be 90% sure it will be quite a successful course. So it's just a matter of keyword research and creating content.

And then you not only got to think about the keywords in the titles for SEO, but you've also got to think about there's a human being; how to get them to click on that title. This is something I'm learning now. I'm learning to put capital letters in my YouTube videos, and I just realized why everyone does that. And you make it a bit click-baity.

For example, one of the recent things I've done is an article about how to sell courses on your own site. But on YouTube, in the title, I wrote in capital letters, "Get OFF Udemy! Sell Online Courses On YOUR OWN SITE!" And it was a combination of good keywords, but also it's a little bit click-baity. And that did well.

So it really is an art. It' an art to writing titles and content that, on one hand, they do well in the search engines, got good keywords. And on the other hand, that human beings want to read them as well. So you've got to think of machines and human beings at the same time.

Jeremy Deighan
Right. Yeah, that's very important because you have to bust through that noise. I like the caps thing because if everyone has the same title, it kind of blends in. But then when the caps locks are there, it kind of pops out more than the others, right? Just like the images. Getting the images is a tricky one, too.

Rob Cubbon
On YouTube, it's the thumbnail and the title that you've got to get right. Because if you don't get that right, nobody's going to click on it.

Jeremy Deighan
Right. I like what you said about if you find a video or a keyword that is performing really well, that you could create a course on it. I think that that's a really smart idea. Because YouTube could give you kind of a way to test your ideas, if you don't know what to create. And you just go on YouTube and start producing 5, 10 minute videos, and kind of see what people are responding to. Then you could take that and turn that into a course. I think that's brilliant.

Rob Cubbon
Yes. And this is my technique for everything, by the way. It's not just YouTube videos. It's also blog posts and email titles as well. And I was going to say something else, probably forgotten. So I'll give you an example. When I was writing blog posts and sending them off in emails, I found the ones that were to do with running a web design business, I found that they did really well.

So I just did a course on running a web design business and a book. And they both did really well. Especially the course on Udemy, that's my best course. And the beauty of it is it's all pretty much evergreen material. So it's still on there.

I made it in about 2014, probably, and it's still selling on Udemy. And it's made over $50,000 that one. So it was the keyword that sells it because people want to know how to start businesses. It's just a good keyword.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's awesome. And then I was thinking about the YouTube strategy, the blog post strategy for creating courses. And I guess putting out some free courses would essentially do the same thing. If you put out a couple free courses and you see one is responding much better than the other ones, then maybe you could create a premium course on that topic, too.

Rob Cubbon
Exactly. It's just the same thing that I do everywhere. You've got the stats and they can see. If you're just starting out, you think, "Oh, everything is just getting a few clicks." But sooner or later, you'll find one's going to do a lot better than all the others. It always happens.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's amazing. Now, have you ever done any paid advertising like Facebook ads, YouTube ads? Have you ever tried any of that?

Rob Cubbon
No. Well, I have tried it but it doesn't work for me.

Jeremy Deighan
Well, it's a whole new skill, right? It's like YouTube or blog posts and stuff. It takes a whole new skill to get into it.

Rob Cubbon
Yeah, especially YouTube, maybe I'm wrong, but I just think my audience like entrepreneurs, I don't think they're on Facebook to buy products about entrepreneurship. And maybe other people I know they have other experiences. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have tried and I can get subscribers, but I can't get buyers through Facebook. Have you had a different experience with that, Jeremy or?

Jeremy Deighan
Well, I think the ads work really well when you're not sending them directly to a course. I think this is a problem a lot of people make. And a lot of people on Udemy do this and this is a terrible strategy to run an ad and send them directly to a Udemy course. Because the return on your ad spend or the return on your investment is just not there.

So what I found to work better is running ads to that freebie. So running ads to the free course or running ads to the free PDF or maybe it's a webinar, where you are directing them into your funnel and they're starting to know you and like you. The thing about ads, it's generally a cold audience, right? They don't even know who you are.

So I think you have to warm them up a little bit. And I find that you know, maybe running ads to that free course, where they can go in, take the course for free, and then get to know you, see your teaching style. Then you get their email list and then sell them, I think has been a better strategy.

Rob Cubbon
My problem with that is it's expensive because you're looking at how much you have to pay for an email address. And then that email address, for me, I don't have a way of knowing whether that one converted. And it will be just one email.

You probably should find a way of knowing how it converted. But that email address, he could end up being a buyer maybe a few months down the line. You don't know, did that one come from Facebook? Or did it come organically?

So I just find it a very expensive way to get to get emails. And that's probably because I'm so spoiled that I get emails for free because I get it organically on Google or organically on YouTube. So, I guess, because of that reason, I don't like spending money on Facebook ads.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah. If you don't have to, if you're already getting them and you've got that strong authoritativeness online, why would you? So just thinking about that, let's say one of your good friends comes up to you and says, "Hey, Rob, I've been working a nine to five job for 20, 30 years. And I really want to create an online course now."

Knowing what you know, you've seen a broad spectrum through the years of development through online business and online courses. If this person was just starting out, what would be some of the tips that you would recommend to them on getting started?

Rob Cubbon
Well, I wouldn't put them off. The last thing I want to do is have people listen to me and think, "Oh, he's got an audience so it's easy for him." Because it really is not the case. I've seen people make YouTube channels and grow them to be bigger than mine in the space of a few months. It just depends on your niche.

So I would suggest, if they want to do a course, I'd definitely suggest to get a YouTube channel. For me, YouTube, making a course is the next logical step after YouTube. Maybe because of my niche, I'm about showing how people can use WordPress, how people can make money online. So it really is a logical thing to go from YouTube, to a platform like Udemy, or to sell courses on your own platform.

So I'll definitely tell them to just start making five-minute videos on YouTube. Start reading up a little bit about SEO to make sure your titles give your videos the best charts they can have on YouTube. And then make loads of videos that are in different subjects for the reason we were just talking about. They can gauge which are the most popular subjects.

And then I guess if that person was just starting out, then I'd suggest that they did start on Udemy. Because if you're starting out, you haven't got an audience. So you might as well start on Udemy, I would say. So I would then say, as we were saying earlier, try to make a course in one month. Make it very quickly.

And then as soon as you've finished and published that course, don't sit back on your laurels. Start making the second course straight away. You've just got to turn yourself into a machine. You're not going to make one course, spend eight months on it, and have it be this great success that you think it's going to be. I mean, you might do but it would be extremely unlikely.

So I'm into the quantity and playing around with the keywords, seeing what works. And then at some other stage, they should set up a website themselves. Because if you haven't got a website, there's no really good way of... maybe you can, but I just think you need a website as a home for everything to draw in all these disparate elements that's always going to be yours.

Also, you can collect email addresses from your own website as well. It will be slow going at first, but I think that the sooner you start with that, the better. But at the moment, I would start on YouTube because I just think it's easier on YouTube to make a start than it would be with blogging these days.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, it's a lot easier with platforms like that. YouTube and Udemy just help you bypass some of the struggles that you might have if you're building a website from scratch. So, I agree with that totally.

Thank you, Rob, so much for all the information today. It's been a pleasure having you on the podcast. I know a lot of these listeners are going to want to find out more about you and some of the things that you're talking about. So where can we do that?

Rob Cubbon
Well, thank you very much. Well, my name is Rob Cubbon. So if you Google that, you should find my site. But if you want to sign up to one of my free courses, have a look at my free courses and see what you think of my sequences after you go through them. You can do so at robcubbon.com/freecourses.

And if you sign up for any one of the six free courses there, then you'll be on my email list anyway, unless you unsubscribe, so you can find out what I'm doing. Otherwise, you can just look in my blog at robcubbon.com. Or you could just Google me, and then you'll find my YouTube channel as well.

Jeremy Deighan
Awesome. Perfect. Thank you, Rob. And I just hope you have continued success throughout the years. And thanks for coming on the podcast.

Rob Cubbon
And very much the same to you, Jeremy. I wish you all the success in the years to come and it's been a pleasure talking to you.