Leveraging the Biggest Video Search Engine Platform on the Planet with Pianist Marina

Jeremy Deighan
Hey, everyone, thanks for checking out the podcast. Today I have Marina from The Piano Keys, who is here to talk about her course creation journey. And I'm super excited to have you on the show today. How are you doing?

Marina
Hi, Jeremy. I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. I'm glad you reached out. And I'm glad that we could get you on the show. And I love this topic because I come from a musical background. I never learned how to play the piano. But once a week, I get to teach my kids a little music class. And that's kind of always fun to do.

So it'll be fun to talk about this and just hear how you got into online courses and how your business is going. But let's start at the beginning. So what were you doing before you got into courses and business and marketing and stuff like that?

Marina
To be perfectly honest, I've been entrepreneurial since I was a child just thinking back, I was always starting businesses. But I'm a musician by trade. And as a musician, I'm sure people know this in other fields as well, you can't just do one thing. So I was performing, I was teaching, I was doing all kinds of stuff.

And I realized that in my teaching, I was pretty limited in my reach, you know? One student at a time or a classroom. And I thought, "Well, if I go on YouTube, I'd be able to reach a lot more people." And, you know, teach people who will never have an option to study with a teacher that is highly qualified. So I did that. And about a year after that, based on all the questions that I got from my viewers, I started making courses to teach the basics. And that's where the course creation started.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, awesome. So when you were teaching originally, before you started doing YouTube before you started doing online courses, was this at a school or university? Or was this just like in-person events that you were doing?

Marina
All of the above. Yeah, you know, I've had so many different places that I've taught. But at that particular point in time, when I started YouTube, I was teaching from my home.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, cool. So you are teaching one on one, you're teaching at school, universities, different places, and you're just like, "I would like to help more people. And so let me try to do this from my home and get on YouTube." When did you start the YouTube channel? How long ago was that?

Marina
That was five years ago in May.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, what did those early days look like? Did you know what you were doing? Had you studied YouTube before? Was it just like, "I'm gonna throw up videos and see what happens."

Marina
I had been a great fan of watching YouTube videos. And when I started making my first videos, actually, the first one I recorded, I think, eight or nine times just trying to figure out how this whole thing goes. And I did it with my little iPhone. And the audio is horrible, and the video is horrible.

But some of those first videos that I made in the first few months of the YouTube channel have gotten almost half a million views by now. So it just goes to show you that yes, video and audio quality are super important. But what trumps it all, I think, is really connecting with your audience and giving them what they're looking for.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. And we'll definitely dive deep into all of those aspects. So you're putting these videos up on YouTube. And what was the growth like in the beginning? Because I know it takes a while to get a channel going, it takes a while to get engagement and for YouTube to find you and show you to other people.

And I know that that's disheartening for a lot of people out there. They put up eight or nine or 10 videos, they don't have any subscribers and then they give up. So what kind of pushed you through those moments? How did you continue to grow your channel over time?

Marina
Yeah, what you're saying is absolutely true, Jeremy, it can be very disheartening. Even now, you know, several years later. So at first what happened is I needed a certain number of subscribers in order to get my own channel name, like a specific name. And so I just recruited my Facebook friends, my real-life friends, and said, "I don't care if you never watch me, just go ahead and subscribe."

I even had a friend who made a couple of channels so she can subscribe twice. So that's how I started going and at first, I would get an alert on my phone every time I had a new subscriber. And that was maybe like two a day and I would get so excited. I would jump up and down say, "Ah, somebody I've never even met before wants to watch me."

I mean, I don't get those alerts anymore, because there's just too many going on, I guess. But I do you know that you have to have the big picture in mind. And there's going to be ups and downs. There have been videos that I thought were amazing like that provides such good content that have maybe 1000 views, you know?

So you really can't base what you're doing on the response. You have to think about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and what the big picture is.

Jeremy Deighan
I love that. And that's such a wild anomaly. I've talked to other people, course creators, content creators, and they always say that you never know what's going to be a success. The videos that you put your most work into, and you think it's going to be the best video in the world gets no views. And then some videos that have poor audio quality, and you know, just aren't the best videos seem to get the most traction. Do you see that too?

Marina
Yep, absolutely. I have given up trying to figure out the market. I just, I do what I do. And hopefully my people will find me and it seems like they have been.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's awesome. So how were you coming up with content ideas for your YouTube channel? Were you doing any kind of keyword research? Or was it just like whatever you thought of, you would make a video on?

Marina
I know that if I were to do keyword research and look at all the statistics and things like that, I'd be a lot more popular than I am. My mind just doesn't work that way. You know, I understand it. But I just, I tune out when I tried to look at all the metrics.

I just think about what would my audience want to learn? And how would they want to learn it? And at the very beginning, I was just taking requests, you know, just asking on my videos, "Hey, what do you want me to do?"

But now I get ideas all over the place. Like yesterday, I was at the gym and I saw a slogan on someone's t-shirt and gave me an idea for a blog post and maybe even a video. So ideas at this point can come from anywhere.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, you know, I love that. I'm a very analytical person. I love the keyword research. I love diving deep into analytics, and you know, graphs and data. And I feel like that can be a big hindrance sometimes because you get so stuck in trying to figure out the perfect thing, you don't move forward.

Where someone like you who just goes by what they feel would be right that, you know, if you're thinking about it, someone else out there is thinking about it, too. And I feel like someone like you can move the ball a lot further than someone like me because you're able to just go out there, create that content, and then just get the feedback from the students like you said.

Marina
Oh, that's hilarious, Jeremy. I feel like if I were more like you. Maybe we need to combine our forces somehow.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, it takes all types, right?

Marina
Yeah.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, cool. So you're putting out videos, you're sticking with it, you've got these subscribers coming into your channel. And then you started seeing some growth. Were you monetizing YouTube at any point? Did you try doing YouTube ads? Or were you trying anything else before you moved into online courses?

Marina
Yes, I've been monetizing almost from the very beginning. And at first, I'll tell you how much I was making. I was making about 80 cents a month. So you know, send the IRS my way. You know, if you're going into YouTube to make money, boy, are you going to be disappointed.

I guess if you have huge growth. Like there's a woman called Kelly Stamps, and she makes videos just about her life. And she, I guess, has monetized to the point where she basically doesn't need to work at all, except on YouTube, and she's traveling around. So there's, you know, there's anomalies like that. But for the most part, it's a lot of work for very little monetary reward, at least in the beginning.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, and so you're putting out these videos, and you're seeing that it's not making a whole lot of money. Is that when you decided, "Okay, maybe I could try this course thing."

Marina
I mean, those things happen, but they weren't caused by one another. I decided to make the courses because I kept getting the same questions over and over. These days, and I'm not blaming people I just want to put that out there. But people have the idea that you can just kind of give them tips.

When you're playing a musical instrument, tips only add they can't take the place of education. And so I decided to make actual courses that lead you through the process. They take you behind what you see someone doing at a piano. Like what you need to know in order to understand how music is put together, how to practice it. You know, the very basics that I would teach somebody in a one on one, I put those in courses to help the people who are looking for that kind of information.

Jeremy Deighan
I love that you say that because I get this question a lot whenever I'm talking to people, especially when it comes to YouTube. They always ask me like, "Well, you know, what do I put on YouTube? And what do I put in my course?" And I try to tell them pretty much what you said, YouTube will give you bits of information, but it's not the journey that you have to take someone through, correct?

Marina
Absolutely, you might be able to find the exact information and process that I'm teaching you, but you're not gonna find it in the order that I'm giving it to you. You know, that's where it's gonna take you years and years. And you don't even know as a beginner, what it is that you need to learn, and in what order. So, yeah, you don't have to buy courses. But why would you want to waste your time like that? You know?

Jeremy Deighan
Right. That's wonderful. I'm glad you said that. So you are getting all these questions from the students? And you think to yourself, "Okay, let me make a course so that I can just direct them to this course and give them the proper education that they need."

So what did you do from there? Where did you put your course up? What did those beginning days look like?

Marina
After figuring out what I wanted in my basic course. And, you know, going through the process of recording it four times through to get it right, which was a huge undertaking. I put up on Udemy, because I had no idea about marketing or even like what other platforms I can host on. So I thought that was quick and easy. And that's what I did.

And Udemy is basically a marketplace that has I don't even know how many 1000s of courses, and their reach is huge. But the thing is that they are kind of looking at it like selling the cheapest courses possible.

Cheapest meaning like monetarily, I'm not talking about the quality of courses. But the lowest prices are like $10, you know, and everybody waits for the $9.99 sale. Well, you can imagine how much the instructor gets from that. And so eventually, I just took my courses off Udemy.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, so you tried Udemy first, put your courses up there, and it just really wasn't bringing in the revenue that you were looking for?

Marina
I was selling hundreds of courses and not even making like minimum wage. If I were to work part-time, it was ridiculous. Okay, I think it was an average of like $3-4 per course.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah. Yeah, depending on their pricing structure, they take 50% to 75% of the sales. And like you said, on a $10 course that leaves you with $2.50 or $5.

Marina
Yeah, it was crazy. And I'm not doing this, you know, to get rich, but at the same time, I just don't think that was fair.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. Okay. And then so you decide this isn't really working out. So you take your courses off of Udemy, and then where'd you go from there?

Marina
So this was a pretty long process. It wasn't just all in one fell swoop. But eventually I migrated everything over to Thinkific. And I think I still have one free course on Udemy. And one like small course, just because I just left them there. But most of my courses are on Thinkific now.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, and you moved over to Thinkific. And if anyone's not familiar with that platform, it's not a marketplace like Udemy, where people are coming in, you know. Thinkific isn't selling your course, it allows you to host it, have quizzes, have completion rates, and all these great things.

But you have to do the marketing yourself. So how did you do that? Once you got your courses up on Thinkific, I imagine in the beginning, there weren't any sales until you got some traction going. So what was that process like?

Marina
I have never done paid advertising, mostly because I'm not sure how to do it. So all of my reach has been organic, either through Facebook. I have a page, as well as a private group for people who are learning from YouTube or from my courses.

And I was just saying on my YouTube videos, "Hey, you know, check out this course or that course" And it began to build little by little as my students were taking the courses, they were discussing them in my Facebook group, and others were becoming interested. So that's kind of how it grew.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, cool. And so I imagine that you were charging a higher price on your own platform, and of course, capturing more of the revenue percentage than what Udemy was taking, right?

Marina
Yes, absolutely.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay. And you get those students in, and you see this revenue coming in. And I guess that was exciting for you to just continue on this path?

Marina
It is super exciting. I mean, making money, of course, is great. But more so it's what really makes me happy is knowing that I'm creating something from nothing that is providing value to people all over the world.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, I love that you say that. I felt that myself. And I've heard other people actually mention that on this podcast that in the beginning, you are trying to get that money because it's like, "Oh, I would like to support myself. I'd like to, you know, leave my job or have some side income, disposable income."

And it's like we kind of start out kind of thinking about ourselves and how we can create a business. But then when you start seeing the transformation in people's lives, you know, people are learning piano, and they're enjoying it and they're giving you feedback, that becomes a bigger motivator than the money.

Marina
It really is. And yes, they're learning piano, but it's a little bit bigger than that. It's like their lives are changing in the sense that they're finally able to do something that maybe they've thought about doing their whole lives. And they felt like they missed the boat, or it wasn't for them.

And because they're able to pursue this thing that had seemed insurmountable before, people have actually told me that they've taken this and applied it to other areas of their lives. And so I'm changing lives without having intended to but it feels so great.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, it definitely does. Now, do you have any type of marketing strategy built up between, say, YouTube and Facebook in the course? In other words, are you doing I know a lot of people, a lot of course creators or marketers will do like a free offer. Or they'll do a free mini-course or a PDF. Are you doing anything like that?

Marina
So I actually have, I don't know, something like 150 free videos on YouTube. I feel like those really speak to me. And then recently, what I did is I took one of my courses called Instant Piano, and I packaged the first 11 lessons as a free mini-course so that people can get an idea of what it's like to study with me in a course, as apart from YouTube videos. And so that's been, I guess, my lead-generating offer for the last month or so.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, nice. And how's that turning out?

Marina
It's turning out great. People are signing up for it. You know, it takes a while to get through for some people, they're busy or whatever. And so I haven't seen too many sales directly attributable to that particular course. But I'm really happy that it's out there. And I'm selling other courses. So I'm fine.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, and I mean, you have that asset. So now, like you said, If someone's unsure about you, or they're not ready to buy and they want to know more about you, you have something that you can offer to them.

Marina
Yes.

Jeremy Deighan
So when you have these courses on Thinkific, I assume that when they sign up for Thinkific, it's capturing their emails and their information and all that stuff, right?

Marina
Yes.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay. And then are you doing any type of say, email marketing, when someone signs up? Are you nurturing them through an email sequence? Are you doing anything like that?

Marina
That's my next step. So I'm going to start that this coming week. I know that it's supposed to be a really important part of marketing. But as, you know, a one man show so to speak. You know, I've had my hands full. So I'm definitely going to start that this week. And I think it's super important.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, you know, it's staying in contact with those people staying in contact and nurturing them and walking through. Email is a great way to do that. But you also have the Facebook community.

So let's talk about your community. When you built this community on Facebook, I always like the idea of creating some kind of community where you can talk directly with people. Because with YouTube, there are comments, but you don't really get that interaction that you do with like a Facebook group. So how has the community been that you've created?

Marina
So when I started it, it was just me. And then I invited one friend and said, "Come join me in this community, I don't want to be the only person." And now we're, I think, 700 members or so. And I really am very stringent about who I will admit into the group because I want it to be a place of positivity and support and encouragement.

And I noticed that in the last few days, I've been really busy with a project. And the group members are answering questions for each other and providing resources. It's just taken on a life of its own, and I love it.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, that's something that is, you know, really cool is that you have these other people who might have similar skills or expertise that can answer questions and build some of that engagement and help each other out.

You know, I make courses on Udemy, too. And they have, I was talking about this with someone else, they have the ability to have a Q&A section in Udemy. But it's not the same thing. Like when you have a Facebook group, and other people are talking, other people are giving information and helping out, it can really drive the engagement and it just benefits everyone in the long run.

Marina
Absolutely. And I'm someone who really loves to learn about marketing and things like that, and course creation. I mean, I like to learn about everything. But recently I was, I think I was reading a book or something like that. And they said what's more important to quote "selling" is that you form a bond, some communication with your audience so that they trust you.

And they're gonna buy from someone that they trust and not necessarily looking for information but looking for somebody that they can relate to and trust. And so I think that the Facebook community allows us to interact as human beings rather than, as, you know, course creator and student. And that really fosters a better relationship in my opinion.

So let's talk about what's actually inside of the course. So when someone joins your course, in the curriculum, is it just videos? Or are you offering other things inside the course also?

Marina
There are videos and downloadable materials. Because it's music, you know, we need stuff to read, like sheet music to read. And also, I have like a glossary of what terms mean, things like that. So downloadable materials and videos, talking heads, things like that.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, cool. And then these downloadables, is it stuff that you're just finding online? Or is it stuff you're creating yourself?

Marina
I create it all myself.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay. And then how are you doing that, are you using software? Or is there anything that helps you create the downloadables for your course?

Marina
Yeah, there's music software, specifically for creating like sheet music type PDFs. So I use dedicated software for that. And then I just upload them as PDFs and people can do what they want with them.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, so it'll actually write out the music and the staffs and all that stuff?

Marina
Yeah, I go through and you have to learn how to use the program, obviously. But yeah, once you learn it, it's super helpful. So I put in what I need to put in, and then I just save it as a PDF.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, so that's cool. I like asking these questions. Because, you know, not everyone out there is teaching music. They might be teaching, programming, or design, or watercolor calligraphy. But I like to ask these questions to help spark some ideas in other people's minds about some things that they can add to their course.

So, you know, imagine you're a calligrapher, maybe you can have a PDF, where people could trace the calligraphy or something like that, that would help out.

Marina
Oh yeah.

Jeremy Deighan
I'm glad that you mentioned those in your course. So just thinking about your course. Well, first of all, how many courses do you have in your, is it like a membership? Or is it an individual course or multiple courses? What's the setup look like?

Marina
People just buy courses as they need to. I have two bundles. They're like technique course bundles. Technique, meaning like, we go through exercises, learning how to move in a way that is safe and healthy for your body, and then that will allow you to play well.

So during this lockdown as a musician, I had no work at all. And so I was able to really focus on creating courses. I think, in the past year, I've made six major courses, and then a few smaller ones. I don't really know how many I have right now. But each one focuses like I have one course that focuses only on using the piano pedal, which isn't as straightforward as most people think. It's not just an up and down motion, there's an actual technique to using the pedal. So I made an entire course on that, where we go through exercises.

Then I have two courses that teach people how to read music, music notation, and just kind of breaks it down so that it's not so mysterious. I have six courses on technique progressively, you know, leading people through higher and higher levels of being able to play fast or, you know, that sort of thing.

I have several tutorials where I teach. What I do is I make easy piano versions of really famous classical pieces, and I simplify them, and then I teach those in courses. So I have a bunch of different offerings that all kind of go together.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, and everyone can buy these individually, or some of these can be bundled together.

Marina
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Deighan
And how are the bundles performing? Do you find that people like buying those bundles?

Marina
Yes, I offer a better price, obviously. But also, I prefer that they buy the bundles, because in the bundles, what I do is I, specifically it's three courses. And rather than just go through course one, course two, course three, I interlace them so that the levels that the student goes through are appropriate, depending on, I'm not saying this very well. But I combine the courses so that they become like one giant course even though they are three courses. It's not just in sequence.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, they help build upon each other?

Marina
Like I'll put a few lessons from one course and then I'll bring in a few lessons from another course as part of the bundle. And then we'll go to the third course and we'll come back to the first course so that they're going through the levels.

Jeremy Deighan
Okay, very cool. Awesome. And then have you thought about doing any type of membership? Because I know some people when they get a certain amount of courses, 10, 20, 30, 50 courses, they start looking at a membership where someone could just pay a recurring membership price, and then get access to everything. Have you thought about that before?

Marina
I have thought about that. And honestly, I just haven't had time to really figure out how that would work. So maybe in the future, I will do that. But at this point, I think people are doing okay just buying what they need and working. Several of my courses take months to complete. So yeah, I have thought about it, but haven't done it yet, short answer.

Jeremy Deighan
Very cool. Very cool. So now, you said that it can take a while to finish some of these courses. And I know that something that course creators struggle with is getting students to complete courses.

So how are you getting someone, especially if it's taking an extended period of time? How are you getting them to complete the course to make sure that they're staying engaged and involved in that course?

Marina
So the truth is that not everybody will complete the course no matter what you do, for various reasons. And that's just the way it is. But my way of helping the student to complete the course is to have them join the Facebook group. And for me to provide, you know, support and for the other members to encourage one another.

There are some things that you can't do quickly. And that's just the bottom line is it takes time. And so I made these courses that at the end of the course, you would have a real transformation. Not just an idea of what you could do, but you could actually do the things that you set out to do. And that takes time. So we encourage through the Facebook group, and I know I've lost some people along the way. And hopefully, they will come back.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, definitely. We always want to try to encourage them to come back to our course. Because you really are trying to help you know, transform lives and really just see-through and you want people to be successful. You know, it's like you said in the beginning, it's a motivator to hear those success stories of someone who completed the course, and learned a new skill.

So do you see any kind of strategies on say, your YouTube channel by using cards or annotations, or the way that you write your descriptions to get people into your course? I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast, they really struggle with the marketing with getting eyeballs on the course driving traffic. And I know that's always a big hang-up for people, you know? How do I get people from YouTube to my course? And how do I get them to buy?

So is there anything that you see with YouTube that's working really well, or maybe something you did with your landing page that you could give advice to anyone listening right now who's struggling to help motivate them to maybe add a video on their landing page or add cards to their YouTube channel? Anything like that, that you just notice that is working really well?

Marina
Okay, that's a very good question. I think I've noticed two things. Number one, a few months ago, I started using Canva, the pro-level Canva to make my thumbnails for my videos. And to add graphics to my videos. And that I think, has really helped because people have told me that my stuff looks more professional. And so I would definitely recommend a Canva membership and go in there and really think about the visuals of what you're presenting. Because you know, we're such a visual society right now.

And the other thing is, I'll just give you an example. I tried to post one video to YouTube, every weekend. And this past weekend, I did not finish my video in time. I was up Saturday, I started in the morning, and I was up until 7:30 the next morning. Like I didn't sleep that night because I wanted to finish to a level of satisfaction that I would be okay with.

And so my point is to be consistent. And to do the best work you can at any given time, even for a free product. Because what you're doing is you're showing who you are, and the experience that the student is going to have with you.

Jeremy Deighan
Oh, that's some amazing advice. I know, having good quality work so people want to come back. And consistency is really key, especially on a platform like YouTube. Because it seems like YouTube seems to promote people who are consistent, whatever that schedule is.

Marina
One thing I want to say and I don't mean for this to sound critical, but it was just my experience. I bought a lot of courses over the past year because, you know, I was home like most of us were and I saw lots of ads on YouTube and some of them had amazing copywriting. And so I bought you know what I thought was interesting. And I did notice that some of the and most of these were like starter courses, you know, 30 bucks, 40, 50, whatever, I guess like lead magnets.

And some of them were incredible value for the money. Others weren't, you could tell they were just hastily put together, no editing done. The "um's" and the lip smacks and everything were all in there, you know what I mean?

As a student, I was cringing, like you could've just taken an hour or so, you know, to edit out those things. And I ended up not purchasing anything more from those teachers because it was obvious they just put something out quickly just to get maybe you know, people coming and buying more courses from them.

My point being that, even if it's, you know, a "low value" course or a free course, make sure that it knocks the student's socks off so that they want to come back to you.

Jeremy Deighan
Nice, I like that. That is a terrific answer. And I really appreciate that. So thinking about someone who's listening to this podcast right now. And they're in the early stages of course creation. Maybe they haven't created a course yet. What is your number one piece of advice that you could give someone out there?

Marina
Put yourself in the place of the student, and think about what they would need to get. Nobody's ever out there looking to buy a course, they're out there looking for a result.

So think about the result that your student wants, and then have just radical empathy. You know, maybe they don't know anything about what you're talking about. So as you're creating the course, think about what questions might come up and answer them within the course so that you're providing kind of a 360-degree experience for them.

Jeremy Deighan
I love it. I love it. Great answer. Thank you so much. So going forward, just thinking out of your own business in the next year, two years or five years. What would you like to accomplish? Where do you see yourself?

Marina
Ooh, good question. Well, I've already had offers to collaborate. I can't really talk about them. But I'm probably going to be on a platform, an international platform for students and things like that.

So what I see for myself is reaching more and more people and providing incredible value for their time and for their money, and helping people achieve things that they never thought were possible for themselves.

Jeremy Deighan
Beautiful. Well, I totally hope that you get to meet those dreams, and that you just keep helping people out there. You know, it's sad to see that a lot of schools, I mean, at least in the United States, where I'm at that I can speak on. The music, it just seems to be getting taken away and it's becoming not such an important thing.

And I feel like music is important. It's a creative way for people to express themselves. And so I think having someone like you out there, teaching piano, teaching music to others is super important in our society.

And you know, I hope the best for you. And I hope that you can just grow and help many more people. If people wanted to find out more about you and your business, where can they do that?

Marina
Thanks so much, Jeremy. I appreciate those wonderful words. They can find me on my website, thepianokeys.com. They can find me on YouTube at The Piano Keys. On Facebook at The Piano Keys.

I have a free course. If you think that learning to read music is hard or complicated, I will challenge you on that assertion. Go check out my free course, Instant Piano Mini Course.

Jeremy Deighan
Very good. Well, we will make sure that we put all of those links in the show notes so that people know exactly where to find you.

Marina, thank you for coming on the podcast today. It's been a total pleasure talking to you and getting to ask you all these questions. And like I said, I just hope you the most success in the future.

Marina
Thank you so much, Jeremy, it was a lot of fun.