How to Pivot from Teaching In-Person Sewing Events to Online Courses with Annie Lucas

June 27, 2022
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In today’s episode, we have Annie Lucas with us and she is going to talk about how she turned her in-person sewing events into professional online courses.

You will also get to hear why you should teach your courses live to hone in on your skills, how teaching your online course multiple times before recording will make the process easier, and why you should consider bootstrapping your business when starting out.

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In this episode, you will hear...

… how Annie turned her in-person sewing events into professional online courses.

… why you should teach your courses live to hone in on your skills.

… how teaching your online course multiple times before recording will make the process easier.

… why you should consider bootstrapping your business when starting out. 

… the psychology of how adults learn and what they need to have a good learning experience.

… how encouraging and uplifting your students positively affect their learning development.

… the importance of preempting your students' struggles in order to help them better.

… Annie's experience with balancing parenthood and launching an online course.

… the difference between drip content and full access.

… Annie’s best advice to the beginner course creator.



Jeremy Deighan
Hey, everyone, thank you for checking out the show today. I am very happy to have you here with us. And I have a very lovely guest with us, Annie Lucas from Start to Stitch. And today we're going to hear all about her journey into online business and online courses. And it's just a pleasure to have you on the show today, Annie. How are you doing?

Annie Lucas
Hi, Jeremy. I'm good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, I'm glad that we were able to connect. I really look forward to this episode and hearing all about everything great that you have going on with your online business.

Before we dive into that, could you just take a moment and let our listeners know a little bit about you, what you were doing before you got, you know, in online business and online courses? And then how did you transition into this world?

Annie Lucas
So, I have always sown since I was a really small girl. When I was about four my parents split up from each other and my dad moved into another house and in the UK in the 1980s there was no TV, kids TV on a Sunday morning, just politics, endless politics.

So one day I went exploring and found a bin liner black sack full of fabric in the utility room at my dad's new house. And I was probably four or maybe five. And I just started chopping it up and stitching it together with the kind of needle and thread that I'd found in his sewing kit that he kept to fix his workshops.

So sewing has always been kind of part of my DNA. No one's ever really taught me, I taught myself. And I almost hyper focused on it really throughout my teenage years and ended up doing a degree in costume design at a college in London called Central Saint Martins, which is quite well known if you know about kind of art school stuff, and became a costume designer, mainly for ballet and theatre.

And then I did a master's and sidestepped into a different career altogether, and then got married and fell in love. And I was living in London and my husband didn't really want to be hanging around in London very much, it wasn't working for us.

So we temporarily moved out of London and then we relocated completely to where I live now which is a part of the UK called Cornwall, which is the kind of you're looking at a map of, of Great Britain, it's the kind of bottom left hand furthers most tip.

And I started a bridal label and made couture bridal for a few years. And then I had kids and wedding dresses and children, as anybody can imagine, is not very conducive. So when I was on my first maternity leave, my mum actually talked me into starting a few informal classes in the local village hall.

So I started teaching in my village hall, to a few people that I just sort of randomly found from a flyer on a lamppost, basically. And it all started from there, I had another baby and after my second daughter was born, I started to formalize it a little bit more and programming courses across the space of a year.

I was just moving into my second year of that and realizing that I was onto something and that I was really enjoying it and building a really strong and lovely community of creative people where I live locally, then the pandemic hit.

Like many, many other businesses, I had to do a very sudden pivot. I originally pivoted just to complete the courses that were outstanding for the students that I had. But very luckily, my husband is a professional filmmaker. So we're totally rigged up here to be able to film stuff. So he filmed, he filmed it all. And I was able to kind of deliver in a really hasty way through Facebook groups.

And as the pandemic went on, I realized that this was a model that could really work and actually would answer a lot of the problems I had with teaching face to face prior to the pandemic. So that's really how I've ended up where I am now.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, this is really cool. I love that story. It's a little different than a lot of other people's. The way you come about it. That's why I love doing this podcast is I get to hear every one's unique version of how they come into this.

And hopefully, it lets the audience the listeners know, to this podcast that there's no one right way that you have to follow like you can come at this from from different angles. So we'll definitely dive into a couple of things here.

I love that you said that your first course was a flyer on a lamppost. My my, how different is it today?

Annie Lucas
I know. And it wasn't that long ago, really. I mean, my first daughter's only seven. So really, we're talking about six years ago, it wasn't that long ago. It's just kind of I don't I mean, I don't know how it works in the States.

But certainly, when you're trying to drum up business locally, lampposts and post office windows and that kind of basis, a good place to find people, but my mindset, needless to say, has had to go through a huge transition as I've moved everything online. And that's been one of the biggest challenges actually.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, and you know, it's really cool, because not everyone might think of that. And that presents an opportunity to people listening, like, here, it's a lot of coffee shops will have bulletin boards. And so you go into a coffee shop, it's got a bulletin board by the bathroom, and people stick up their business cards.

Maybe you could stick up cards of your course, and get people in that way. So I think it's really unique. And I think it's really cool to mention that. So you started doing these courses locally, when you did those first couple of courses, just in your local town hall. Did you have an idea of how you were going to teach or what you wanted to teach?

Like, had you built a curriculum, per se? Or did you just have some ideas, and you went in and said, "I'm just going to show a couple things I know how to do."

Annie Lucas
I had a really clear idea about what I wanted to teach in the initial instance, really, because I had for years as somebody that sews and makes, you know, exquisite gowns and beautiful tutus for ballet and you know, really exciting. And people have often looked at what I've done in my career and thought, "Gosh, it must be so wonderful."

And actually, it looks wonderful. And I think anybody who's worked in the performing arts sector would say that it has its really wonderful moments. It's also seriously hard graft, it involves a lot of late nights. But throughout all that time, I'd heard the same stories from my friends and from people I might meet at weddings or parties or whatever else.

And it was the same story coming, which is essentially A, "I wish I could do what you can do." But B, "I've got a sewing machine. But it's never been out of the box," or "I've got a sewing machine. But it's stuck in the cupboard under the stairs because I tried to thread it one day and I wanted to throw it out the window or against a wall," or "I used to so but I had a terrible teacher at school, who basically traumatized me, and I've not been able to so since because I think I'm crap at it."

And it was those kinds of stories that were coming at me time and time and time again. So my first course, which I'm still teaching, and was still teaching, when I pivoted online, was very much aimed at those people and was designed to not just teach them how to thread a machine successfully without wanting to throw it against the wall.

But also, some of the really key foundational bits of knowledge that I feel are vital when you're starting on an adventure into sewing. So that you get things right the first time, but you're also not coming up against a hurdle a minute, you've overcome the biggest mountain which is essentially threading the machine, you know, you thread the machine and you have this huge euphoric moment about threaded the machine. And then suddenly you realize how much you don't know.

So that puts people off. And it's detrimental to their development and their learning. And I have really personal reasons for wanting people to so you know, I have a kind of personal history of trauma in my life, as a childhood and as an adult. And sewing has really been a wonderful way of processing things and being present, and keeping in the moment and expressing myself.

So aside from earning me a living, it's really helped my mental health. So that's really been a driver for me and my business. And I didn't want to be teaching people in a way that was going to ultimately potentially make them feel bad about themselves, because they kind of got so far, but they didn't know where to go next.

So I basically devised a five module five week course, that I taught weekly, one evening a week that covered off threading, and then some really foundational skills so that by the time they got to the end of it, if they never had another sewing lesson, as long as they lived, they were doing things right.

And they were really able to not only tackle simple projects, but to use the knowledge they've got to kind of invent their own projects, which to me was really important, empowering people to be able to take the knowledge I've given them and run with it without needing to be spoon fed, without having to serve a prescribed project from a book or pattern from a catalog or whatever.

So I had that really clearly in mind. And that was the first thing and I basically wrote it week on week, I had an idea about what was going to teach. But I wrote it week on week as I got to know the group. And I got to know that first group, and I got to know what their skills were. And they all wanted to do more.

So I wrote another one. And I'm still teaching that on. And I was only teaching six people at a time because I wanted to give people really good one-to-one. But I didn't want to have a room full of 10 people, I also really wanted the students in my class to feel strongly connected with each other. Like there was a kind of sense of community, we all sat in a circle, we weren't in lines.

I used to put bowls of England, we call them jelly babies, I don't know whether you have them in the States. But they're like little candies that are shaped like babies, they're really bright colors. Now that I'm talking about it, it sounds really random. But I didn't want people to feel like they were coming to a formal class.

So I wanted people to feel like they were really evening sewing with friends where they were learning something really valuable. And that has been the foundation of my business from the beginning. And has absolutely carried on in every decision I've made since.

And during the pivot on to online, it's been so important to carry that essence of togetherness and community and mental health and the kind of positive well being benefits of sewing on into what I do what I have done since 2020.

Jeremy Deighan
Right? Yeah, you know, there's two things that I hear here that I think's important. The first is, I think it's important that you were paying attention to what your students or what your audience was telling you about the stories that they kept repeating.

And you kept noticing these patterns over and over again, when you start getting deep into marketing and sales, you realize that that's super important to make sure that you are paying attention. And that's something that I highly recommend to people is to be taking notes of what stories, what objections, what problems do people keep telling you, that you can solve with your course or with the way that you present the material.

So I first want to say that I think that's awesome that you did that. That's super important. And then the second thing too, is I just wanted to take a minute to talk about the in person course. And I'm glad that you elaborated on it more. Obviously, you know, the name of this podcast is Online Course Igniter Podcast.

But I feel like people can take this information and they can present it into an in person event or vice versa. And the fact that you started there, I feel is important because some people do in person events, some people go straight to online courses.

I feel like the people who do in person events have a little bit of an edge because they get to meet those people face to face. They're right there with them, they can see where they're struggling, they can see the problems that they're having. And I feel like it really, like you said develops a sense of community, and you kind of get your style, you know?

Through having the candy and the format in this circle and the way that you set it up, you kind of realize like, "This is how I like to teach. Now when I go online, how can I incorporate this same idea into my online classes? How can I still make it feel like someone is sitting in the same room with me and enjoying this?" And so I think that that's super important, too.

Whenever you do these in person events. And I recommend anyone do them. Like if you have a chance, like you're teaching something, even if it's programming or graphic design something that's a very, you know, computer based skill. Go to your local town hall, go to your local library, see if you can host some in person courses. I feel like you'll benefit from that.

What are some of the things that you learned by doing those in person events that was able to help you when you did go online? Was there any mistakes or any things that you found when you were doing those events that when you went into your online course it really helped out that process?

Annie Lucas
Yes, absolutely. The biggest one is how hard it is for adults to learn something new. It's not that adults physically find it hard to learn, we can all learn things. We're all learning new things every day. But for me, it really developed an awareness of how difficult it is in terms of one's own origin story and the voices and the experiences you've had and the stories you tell yourself about yourself and your own abilities.

Especially if you've had a difficult time with my you know, with my subjects or sewing at school and there's been some kind of traumatic experience with a nylon line dress or something, which is another story I hear a lot.

So for me that that really was the biggest kind of deep dive into the psychology of how people learn and what people need what adults need in order to have a good learning experience. You know? I actually wrote an email to my list about this this morning because It's something I feel really strongly about, you know?

I still teach this beginner's course, it's still a really important part of it's probably the most important part of my program at the moment, my whole kind of curriculum at the moment, but my whole teaching style is all about lifting people up. It's about lifting people up and celebrating their achievements.

And yes, if somebody asks for criticism, if someone invites criticism, if someone really wants to know how to do things better, then I offer that in a really constructive way. But first and foremost, it's about empowering that person, and celebrating the fact that whether it's brilliant, or not quite as good as brilliant, but okay, it's still okay, and they've still done it.

And they've still taken the step to watch the lesson, and put the thing into practice, and to have a go. And actually, the doing of the thing is the bit that I celebrate, like, you know, my students, if they enjoy what they're doing, then they become self critical. And I support them in that and I help them and I do it in such a way as I encouraged them to look at what they're doing and want to improve and offer them tips and tricks to improve.

But it's never ever framed as, "Well, you know, that's a great piece of work, but your cushions, your corners could be pointer." Because essentially, at the end of the first lesson, they've made a pincushion and it's just a little stuffed square, but if they've made a thing and they've gone from baseline zero, to making a practical, usable object, for me, that's as a teacher so rewarding.

You know, my attitude to my students is always to celebrate them and to help them realize that very few people are learning with me because they want to become prison couturiers, you know, if they wanted to become a prison couturiers, they'd be going somewhere else.

They're learning with me because they want to do something for themselves. They want to have fun, they want to make things with love to give their friends and family, but they're not doing it to get slated in a massive work.

I was watching Making the Cut, actually, which is a bit like Project Runway. I was on Prime like, because I've been poorly. And I was watching that yesterday. And I was thinking how really catty and unpleasant sometimes the judges were being. And it was really depressing me because I just thought, you know, "These are really talented people who are putting years of experience onto the runway in front of them."

And there are ways of delivering criticism, there are ways of reinforcing the you know, the positive aspects of what people are doing. So for me, are voted on. But basically, for me, the biggest thing I learned from that time was the psychology of an adult learning.

And so although I'm moving to Evergreen now with my programs, I'm actually still offering weekly drop in Zoom calls, so people can still see me, there's still a sense that there was always a tutor there for them to ask, there is always somebody once a week who will be there who they can ask a question from and who will celebrate them.

Jeremy Deighan
We as teachers and instructors and educators, our goal is to guide people into the right place of education that's really going to help them out the most. And there's something to be said with like you said criticizing in a way that's going to help them out. But just to criticize someone doesn't really help people who are learning, especially in those beginning stages, as you mentioned.

Because you're gonna make mistakes and you're not going to know what you don't know. And you have to have some kind of leeway to allow for things to be wrong and be okay with that. I wanted to learn the violin and so I picked up a violin a couple years ago, and it was really hard because it's a completely different instrument.

And I had to be okay with being squeaky and not sounding good and not knowing how to play scales and stuff like this. And you have to have that positive reinforcement from someone because if someone is just constantly criticizing you, you will start to begin to believe that you are not grasping it and will never grasp it. And therefore, what's the sense of moving forward.

But if someone is positive, they're encouraging. And they're, you know, teaching you the right way, then you build that self confidence and through self confidence, you will want to continue to a point where you will begin to master what it is you're trying to master. So that's really cool.

So you moved into recording your videos, which I assume was a completely different experience for you. So what was it like having to transition now into videos and taking it online?

Annie Lucas
Yeah, that was a totally different experience. And kind of through the lens of the first week of the first UK lockdown when we were all just, I don't know about you, but we will just totally stunned at how fast everything had unfolded here and what was happening around us. And now our lives have changed for an indefinite period of time overnight.

So it was all a bit of a strange and surreal time. And I am prone to overthinking and a bit of a perfectionist in most things that I do. Although having kids is made me slightly less than a perfectionist. You just that's the path to insanity when you've got children is maintaining perfectionism.

So basically, I was panicking about my students, and also how I was gonna win money. You know, I had students haven't finished a course. But also I had no idea how long this was going to go on for I had no idea where my income was going to come from.

I had a year's worth of courses program that I couldn't deliver, and I didn't know when I'd be able to deliver them. And I sort of was in this terrible spiral of, "What do I do what I do, what do I do?" And I remember my, I've been in the house, I think we're on sort of day three or day four.

And I think I'd been doing a Pilates class on that we'd moved on line and I'd gone out into the garden, we had really fabulous, unusually fabulous weather in the spring that year, and here and the kids were in the garden and my studio is not where I am now, which is my office, but my studio is at the bottom of the garden.

And I share it with my husband, who's this photographer and filmmaker. And I went out to talk to Chris about something and he basically he'd set up the studio with lighting. And he said, I'll never forget it. He said, "Right. So we're going to film your course now you just need to go and put some mascara on. Just go and you know whatever it is you need to do go put some mascara on, bit of makeup."

He knew that will make me feel better about suddenly being on camera. And I said, "We want possibly we can't possibly. I haven't planned it. I don't know what I'm doing. We haven't practiced." He said, "We don't need to you just need to do it."

And honestly, if it hadn't been for him, I don't think I would ever have been even one foot closer to where I am today. Because that was just a real sliding doors pivotal moment. And I can remember so clearly coming back into the house and putting some makeup on my face and then going back out into the cabin.

And because it was the beginners course that I was teaching, and I taught it sort of seven or eight times already. I knew it like the back of my hand. I had everything planned. I had the handouts prepped. I knew what the content was. And I'm relatively confident on camera I do lives in my Facebook group.

And like with my other jobs I've done what's a presentation. So I was pretty confident about being on camera, it was just being scared that I was moving into this world I knew nothing about and actually at that point I hadn't done very much researching. And that's essentially how it happened.

And my number two child was about 20 months old at the time, and we filmed we filmed that course during her nap times over the course of the next two weeks. She slept for two to three hours a day.

And my eldest who was in reception, so first year of grad school, here and so we haven't really had didn't have any home learning for her because she had only been in school a few months. And she just played around in the garden in the paddling pool. And we filmed well, the little one slept. And that's what happened.

It sort of happened without me even realizing it. And then suddenly we were in this whole new world, this brave new world and I was researching everything to within an inch of its life and trying to work out where I could go next.

Jeremy Deighan
Nice. Yeah, my kids are eleven and eight now and I started eight years ago so at the time I had a three year old and a newborn baby and I feel you. Set them down run over real quick tried to record before they wake up or they need a glass of water or something. Yeah, that's really cool.

Well, what a blessing he is because I'm sure anyone listening to this podcast right now would love to have someone come up to them and say, "Hey, I set up a recording studio. Let's film your course."

Annie Lucas
I count my blessings every day for how fortunate I am for him because he is my biggest champion but he also is just there when I need you know when I need help with tech and you know, all of us who are making these these courses and forging our way in the online world, tech does not come naturally to alot of us.

And to have somebody there who can say, "Oh yeah, you need this kind of microphone and you need to do this and no that lighting isn't right. And the problem is we need to do it from this angle."

But I can stand here with my gimbal. And, and you know, film you. And it'll look great. I am so lucky. Because also, it's been a huge cost saving exercise apart from anything else, you know? Filming professional videography is expensive, and I wouldn't have been able to do it if I didn't happen to have a resident cameraman.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, and you know, not everyone needs that. Just to put a disclaimer out there that to get started, don't feel like you have to have that. But that is amazing that you did and have that ability.

Because you're right, you know, a lot of people who teach online courses, they're into arts, or they're in some kind of education, like you said, that isn't in production. And so it is a challenge to figure out the production side, figure out the hosting platforms and the technology and the different things that goes along with it.

But something else that you said a minute ago that is super important, is, you know, you said that you had already taught your subject multiple times and knew the information like the back of your hand. So when you went to go record, you knew it, and I'm sure you had to take it, you know, multiple takes or something every now and then.

But I feel like that's important, too. And this goes back to you teaching in person events, right? Like, this is why it's not a bad idea for someone to consider going and teaching an in person event somewhere, because you will get that ability, again to teach it multiple times and refine and get better, figure out people's frustrations and what's hanging them up.

And then adding that to the course. We take this into the online world by selling a beta program or a pilot program where you're basically doing the same thing online, you're getting a group of people, they're paying you money, you get them into a Zoom call, and then you teach the information.

If you can do that a couple of times before you go record your course. I feel like that process is gonna go a little smoother. Do you agree with that?

Annie Lucas
Yes, I absolutely do. And the point you made about understanding people's frustrations is the key thing about that, it's not just about knowing your material inside out and back to front, it's about being able to preempt the struggles your students are going to have when they're doing it on their own at home.

So that you can build that into the way you're teaching, or into the kind of supporting handouts or the way you caption the video, whatever else so that you can really give them the most positive experience possible. And, you know, if I just decided I was going to do an online course in in sewing, it will be a very different beast to the one I've got now, because I had the benefit of all of that.

And actually, I've written subsequent courses and put them online, I have really found that experience of understanding where people's frustrations are, is so important, even with the new, the new stuff that I've been producing, because I have that prior experience, I have that prior experience of where people might get snagged, and where people might get, you know, stumble where people might not understand.

And it's really fed through into all the new stuff where I haven't been able to be to test face to face because of the ongoing situation with a pandemic. And because also now I have this much bigger community that I can beta test with who are all online and who will know and appreciate the way I teach online so I can find them and and it works. But that face to face experience was so important.

Jeremy Deighan
Now, you mentioned that when you went online, you hosted this in a Facebook group. So was this a paid thing that you were doing? Were people paying you and then they had access to the course.

And the follow up question to that was were you putting the videos in Facebook? Or were you using some kind of platform to host the course? What did that look like when you got it online?

Annie Lucas
Initially, nobody was paying me because they'd already paid me. So there were students who had the lockdown had interrupted their face to face learning. So in that very, very first stage was just me trying to deliver on a promise to teach them.

When I realized that it could work, I then did a bit of social media, you know, "I'm doing a course. You're all locked up at home. Do you want to learn to sew with me?" And I had a few people, you know, quite a few people take me up.

I was initially putting the video straight into Facebook into a closed Facebook group. But Facebook, in the very early stages of the pandemic changed their rules about the sizes of videos you could upload. And so we had to think very quickly on our feet. And at that point, my resident technical experts, Chris, said, "No, you just need to put them on YouTube as unlisted links."

So at that point, we put them on YouTube as unlisted links. And then I still gave people a drip access to the content. So I was dripping it weekly. They were having a module released weekly, but I was basically copying and pasting the captions for the videos with the link from YouTube in to Facebook with it set in social learning mode. So at that point it was they were called modules.

Facebook again has changed and then are called guides. But at that point they were called modules. So I was sort of starting to find my way with how online course delivery works without investing in a platform, I was getting a sense around how handouts accompany videos were all the things go in what I might need to say extra to the video in order to clarify or qualify it.

And I was giving people that live weekly drip fed content, but I was also having the benefit of them being in the group, being able to share all their work and chat with each other and support each other. And I would pop up and do a live periodically.

And then I think by the time I started running it properly, I think I've run it once just as a totally passive thing with just me in the group. And then the next time I ran it when I did it, that was when I did my first kind of formal proper launch. By that time we were in October of 2020.

And I'd been suddenly immerse myself in the world of online learning and how does it work and course launching and what do you need to do. So I did as much as I could a live launch when it was just me at home with two small children. And I had 15 people sign up to that course, within 48 hours of me launching it.

And at that point, I introduced the live weekly video chat element to it, so that they had the sense of classroom environment. And they were all together. They were seeing each other once a week, and they were making friendships. And that has worked. You know, I've had courses where students have been crying in the last week because they're not going to see each other again, and that has been really validating

Jeremy Deighan
In the live chats, you were doing those inside of Facebook?

Annie Lucas
Yes, so I had a messenger group where we were chatting, but I was also using the Facebook group where I was hosting the videos. So everything was basically run through Facebook, it was proper bootstrapping, I was gonna say I've only just since September been migrating everything over to Kajabi.

Jeremy Deighan
I like the way that you bootstrapped it. Because it shows people that you don't have to get real complicated in the beginning, when you're just starting out, which I recommend is probably better. Because there's no sense in going and spending, you know, $100-200 a month on an online course platform. If you haven't even tested your course idea, if you're not making sales, if you don't know how you're going to teach.

You know, people want to jump right into the production and getting it hosted. And it's like why don't you go make sure that this is something people will pay for, make sure that you're teaching it the right way, make sure that you're building that community first. And then like you did later on once you have a proven system once you've done, then you can move it over to an online course platform.

So I like this idea. Just put the videos up on YouTube. YouTube is free, you can enlist the videos where people can't find them unless they have the link. You could set up a free Facebook group where you can have your community, you can do live videos, you can, like you said, drip them into the modules or the sections of Facebook or the guides every week. I think that's brilliant. I think it's a really cool way.

And you're moving over to Kajabi now. Kajabi is one of my top recommendations. I like that platform a lot. Are you finding it pretty intuitive? Do you enjoy Kajabi?

Annie Lucas
It's taken a bit of getting my head around just because you know any kind of developing platform is a new thing to learn. And I'm not great, I write somewhat ironically, I'm not great at watching videos and having the patience to watch videos to watch someone else show me how to I just kind of dive in and make it up as I go along.

So I had a few kind of moments of, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing." But now I've got the hang of it. It's certainly from the point of view of just like uploading material and getting the courses, right? My teething troubles were more to do with the sales pages and understanding how the offers and that kind of thing works.

But it is a really intuitive platform. And I like the end user interface. My students absolutely love it. Everyone that did the Facebook system are they are just loving the online academy, they it's so much easier for them the fact that they can have it on their phones that they can take their phone into the fabric shop and download their list of materials. And there it is.

And it's really good. It is pricey. But it's really good. And for the long term. It's absolutely the right thing for me because the other thing I've been learning about is marketing. You know, I wasn't I'm not a marketing expert.

So I've been growing my list and cultivating more of that and trying to grow my audience in that way. So having everything integrated in one place was ultimately why that was why I chose Kajabi.

Jeremy Deighan
Very cool. Yeah, it's a great program. It's all in one. You don't have to worry about having multiple applications. You can have a blog, you can host your course, I think it even has a community feature built in that you can use. So it really is a nice platform to use. So that's neat that you're getting to that stage.

I think it's really awesome. Everything you've done and all the information that to provided today, I think is really going to help a lot of people out. Thinking about the person who is just getting started, you know, thinking back to where you were some years ago, and just now figuring all this stuff out.

That person listening right now, as a beginner, they're trying to figure it out what would be probably your best piece of advice that you could give to them?

Annie Lucas
There's a saying that became my phrase of 2020, that relates to my perfectionist tendencies. And it was the biggest learning I had from 2020, which is done is better than perfect. I just wouldn't be here. If I had faffing around trying to get it right. I just had to do it.

And actually, once I did it, I realized I could do it, you know, I could do it. And it was a good product, we're still using those lockdown videos, you know, we're still using them. So, and I'm still selling that course. And people still learning from them two years later.

So that is, the biggest piece of advice is you can drive yourself mad researching tech solutions and pipelines and how you're going to find people. But I think taking action is the best thing you can do. And don't dwell too much on trying to be perfect in the taking of the action.

Because even if you only have three people on your first course, even if you only have two people in your first course that those are still people that can give you testimonials. There's still people that can help you evaluate your material, there's still people that can help you understand what you need to do better. And that's really important as you move forward. And it's a start. It's a start.

Jeremy Deighan
Yes, definitely. That's some great advice. And Annie, it's been awesome having you on the show today. And just thank you for taking the time to be here and spreading the knowledge to others. If people would like to learn how to sew or would like to find out more about you online, where can they go?

Annie Lucas
They can find me on Instagram at starttostitch and on Facebook, which is the same. And then my courses are all launching in an evergreen format now from the 28th of April. So that is And then I have a website, which is also

So yeah, so it's all happening right as we speak, then the migration over to evergreen and I've got a whole host of courses now. So I really appreciate the opportunity to chat to you today. Jeremy, thank you so much.

Jeremy Deighan
Yeah, it's been great having you thank you for everything. I'll make sure that I link up everything in the show notes. And I just hope that you continue having major success going into the future.

Annie Lucas
Oh, you're so kind. Thanks so much, Jeremy.

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